If you struggle feeling safe and secure in relationships or face challenges due to chronically unhealthy relationship dynamics, did you know that your attachment style might be at the root of the issues? Your attachment style, whether secure or one of the three types of insecure attachment, has a huge influence on how you perceive and operate in your relationships. In my work as a clinical psychologist, I have discovered the game-changing power of delving into and healing attachment wounds. If you are seeking more joy and stability in your relationships, join me and top-notch attachment experts Rebecca Webster and Pablo Alvarez for a deep dive into the power of attachment theory.

Topics discussed include attachment theory, secure attachment, insecure attachment, avoidant attachment, anxious attachment, disorganized attachment, marriage, relationships, intimate relationships, marriage counseling, therapy, mindfulness, journaling, self-reflection, co-regulation, and empathy.

Please note that this episode may contain sensitive material; listener discretion is advised.

Emergency Assistance Note: If you or someone you know needs immediate support, please call your emergency services. In the US, 24/7 help is available by calling “911” or “988” (Suicide and Crisis Hotline). Support/informational links are in the show notes.

IMPORTANT DISCLAIMER: No expert in this (or any episode) is offering medical or psychological direction; the content is purely informational in nature. Please consult your physician or healthcare provider before undertaking any new regimen or procedure.

https://www.nami.org/support-education/nami-helpline/

Connect with Dr. Carla Manly:
Website: https://www.drcarlamanly.com
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/drcarlamanly/
Twitter: https://www.twitter.com/drcarlamanly/
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/drcarlamanly
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/carla-marie-manly-8682362b/
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@dr_carlamanly_imperfect_love
TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@dr_carla_manly

Books by Dr. Carla Manly:
Joy From Fear: Create the Life of Your Dreams by Making Fear Your Friend 
Date Smart: Transform Your Relationships and Love Fearlessly
Aging Joyfully: A Woman’s Guide to Optimal Health, Relationships, and Fulfillment for Her 50s and Beyond
The Joy of Imperfect Love: The Art of Creating Healthy, Securely Attached Relationships

Oracle decks by Dr. Carla Manly:
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Amazon

Connect with Rebecca Webster and Pablo Alvarez
Website: https://www.connection-counselling.ca/
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/connectioncounselling.ca/
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@connectioncounselling

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Anxious or Avoidant in Your Relationships? Discover How to Create Secure Attachment and Loving Connection with Experts Rebecca Webster and Pablo Alvarez

How to Create Secure Attachment in Yourself and Your Relationships

If you struggle with feeling safe and secure in your relationships, or if you have difficulty due to chronically unhealthy relationship dynamics, did you know that your attachment style might be at the root of the issue? Your attachment style, whether it’s secure or one of the three types of insecure attachment, has a huge influence on how you perceive and operate in your relationships. In my work as a clinical psychologist, I have discovered the game-changing power of delving into and healing your attachment wounds. If you’re seeking more joy and stability in your relationships, join me and today’s top-notch attachment experts, Rebecca Webster and Pablo Alvarez, for a deep dive into the power of attachment theory.

In this episode, we’ll focus on this listener’s real-life question. “My girlfriend says I’m avoidantly attached. She says I keep running from her attempts to connect and have a deeper relationship. I’m tired of her talking to me about it. I think we just have different relationship styles. She asked me to write to you and give you an example. We often have conflicts. Last night, we had another fight about her messy habits. I like things neat, and she throws things around. She likes to clear things up by talking about it, but I go quiet because it doesn’t do any good. I don’t see this as avoidant. I just don’t want to waste my time. What’s your opinion?” With that question as the focus of this episode, I’m Dr. Carla Marie Manly, and this is Imperfect Love.

I am joined by a tremendous duo, Rebecca Webster and Pablo Alvarez of Connection Counselling. They will be sharing their expertise on attachment theory and unhealthy relationship dynamics. Welcome to the show, Rebecca and Pablo. It is such a delight to have both of you with us.

It’s a pleasure to be here. Thank you very much for having us.

Thank you, Dr. Carla.

Attachment Experts Rebecca Webster And Pablo Alvarez

It’s a pleasure to have you. You’re located in Canada. Your professional counselors and you have loads of experience and a passion for attachment theory. I do too. I know this is going to be a fabulous conversation that will be so helpful for our audience. Often, even if we have a general idea of our attachment style, we don’t realize how much it can control us behind the scenes. Before we launch into today’s topic, would you each share a little bit about what makes you, you? We’ll start with Rebecca.

Do you mean individually or as a couple?

Let’s go individually.

What makes me, me is that I have a passion for mental health and counseling, helping people, and connecting one-on-one with my clients. I have a background in film and television. With my relationship dynamic, and the reason that I’m so passionate about attachment theory is because I was insecurely attached, and I had an insecure anxious attachment style. When I learned about attachment theory, it was an a-ha moment. Everything started to make sense. When I started working towards becoming secure, it changed my life. Everything started to go in the right direction.

Thank you for sharing that. I could take a deep dive into your film and television background, but I won’t. I appreciate that. I appreciate how you’re talking about the importance of attachment style and healing, and how those with an insecure attachment style, people often think that they’re stuck with that. You are highlighting from the beginning that we have the power to change our attachment style. We are not stuck with insecure attachment. For those who are insecurely attached, whether you’re feeling the effects of being avoidant, anxious, or that more disorganized combination, they can make relationships tough, so much tougher than they need to be. The healing isn’t an easy process, but it is doable and very rewarding. Pablo, please tell us a little bit about what makes you, you.

I had insecure avoidant attachment. What makes me, me is how I show up in the world. It’s how much I care for my friends, my family, Rebecca, and my clients. I think that’s important, and my ability to make people laugh. Even five years into healing and feeling much better, I’m almost not even sure sometimes. You’re still trying to figure yourself out. It’s important, personally for me, that when I was insecure avoiding, my default was to go into a hype or else state, meaning a disconnection or disassociation, when either I got triggered or experienced trust or conflict in my life. That’s what it was. What happens is I’m not present. That’s why I say it’s how I show up on my friends, family, Rebecca, especially, and clients. I stayed present when they talked. I think that’s how I can show up in the world.

Thank you both for being so vulnerable. Pablo, what you’re saying makes perfect sense. For those who are avoidantly attached, that tendency to dissociate, to cut off, separate from your true self, and go into this place of true avoidance, which is a fear response. It’s a trained response. Many people don’t realize that the attachment style is not something we choose. It’s formed generally by 18 or 24 months of age. It’s not something we choose. It’s something that we adopt because of what’s being modeled for us and our experience. You two are the pros here. For the audience, we have a married couple here. Do I have that right? You also work together. The counseling center you run is owned and operated by both of you, which is no easy feat to live and work together and stay harmonious in the process.

We’re proud of that. Yeah.

How long have you been married?

Was last year our 10th anniversary? I think it’s been 11 years now, coming onto 12. We were together three years before that.

Dealing With Attachment Issues In The Relationship

If I heard you right, Pablo, you’ve been working on your attachment issues. Were you saying 5 or 6 years? I know we’re digressing a little bit from the topic, yet we’re in it. It sounds as if you were together and even married while you were still having these different attachment styles. As we know, the avoidant and the anxious attachment styles often team up together. They can trigger the heck out of each other’s wounds. The avoidant is running, and the anxious is following like a little bunny. The avoidant is running, and the anxious is exacerbating the issues. Could you tell me a little bit about how that manifested in your relationship?

If I can just go back. I’ve been healing for about five years now. I’m being totally honest here. My avoidant attachment style was so severe that when Rebecca and I were dating for 3 or 4 years before we got married, even then, I was still a little disconnected, meaning I had one foot in and one foot out. It’s that kind of mentality. I never wanted to truly give 100% of who I was. I didn’t want anybody to see it, even my wife. That’s how terrifying it was. It’s that narrative of if someone truly found out who I was, they would hate me, they would reject me.

All these things would happen that repeat my past. Even being married, I would admit that I wasn’t 100% in. I wasn’t aware of stuff. Often, when Rebecca and I would have our arguments in the past, it was my first instinct because an anxious for avoidant person, sometimes I could interpret her coming into the room, whether it be energy, mood, facial expression, let alone no talk at all. I want to get out of there because for me, it represented chaos. Again, going back to my mother.

That’s how I continued for a long time until about five years ago when I hit rock bottom. I started repeating the same destructive patterns. I got to a point where I had a job, and I messed it up with that same pattern. At that time, Rebecca said to me, “We’ve got to separate here. You can go on and continue the same destructive patterns, but you can do it alone, or is it here now that you change? If it is here now, you changed. It’s going to be really hard work.

That was a turning point for me. In one of the books, when I first started healing, one of the phrases was, “If you want something you’ve never had, you have to do things you’ve never done.” I was in my 40s. I was like, “Let’s try it because nothing has worked so far. What do I have to lose? Because I’m rock bottom. Some people’s rock bottom could be their springboard. That’s what it was for me, and I just dove in.

I was open for the first time in my life instead of deflecting everything, like, “No, no, no.” I’ve been with multiple women. “No, it wasn’t me. It’s them. I haven’t found the right one.” It kept repeating until I never reflected on it. That’s when that truly started. There was a course at the University of Toronto that I took, and it started opening my eyes. The meditation came in first. Even then, I was still a little bit resistant. My default was “No, I don’t want to try anything new. I just want to know this. Leave me alone.”

I tried it and I was open. I was so emotional throughout the whole course and the meditations. It started reflecting inside. For the first time, I was by myself with my own thoughts. That was terrifying, but that opened my eyes. It laid the foundation for me. From there, I started journaling. Again, even journaling, I had to go to the basement with the lights. I had a little candle and read because of the judgment and criticism. I don’t want anybody behind. That’s how I used to journal.

I went from there. I journaled for 45 minutes every night. I still do the meditation, the reading, and the therapy. All that combined, I started healing. I encourage anyone, it’s here now that they change and make that decision because it’s going to be very hard work. As we know, there are huge dips and ups and downs for the first 6 to 12 months. That’s my journey, and I’ve seen other clients do the same thing. People do change.

I want to pause here because of what you’ve offered to us in such a vulnerable and genuine way. It’s so important to honor and appreciate that. Often, people think that because you’re a clinician or whatever degree you have, your life is perfect and you have it all together. The truth is that clinicians and medical practitioners, no matter who you are, there’s always stuff behind the scenes because we’re human and we are imperfect.

What you’ve shared, Pablo, is such a gorgeous and vulnerable example of how when you do your work, and we all have work and less for somehow perfect, and I’ve never met a perfect person, but when we do our work and address our wounds and go through that muck, we can come out the other side. It’s the idea of alchemy, turning lead into gold. We are turning the lead in parts of ourselves often. As you’re saying, Pablo, we are letting go because of childhood. It’s not anything you did, but because of your caregiving. For most of us, that’s the case.

When we do that work, when we wake up and are awakened to it and are willing to die in doing that work, it is heavy and it can be dark, but the transformative results within yourself and every relationship in your life, especially your intimate ones, are so profound. You can tell in the way that I’m joining with you and talking about it. Not only do I witness this working with clients, but I have witnessed it in my own life, having come from a place of highly insecure attachment ages ago.

Thank you for sharing that piece, and you’re making me think of my fourth book, The Joy of Imperfect Love, which is based on attachment theory, and how we can do this work. It’s not just for reading a book. That’s not generally going to do the trick. It’s reading, journaling, meditating, seeing a professional therapist if you can afford a therapist, doing work in a group setting, and doing the work in your intimate relationship, which is where we get to, whether it’s with a girlfriend, a boyfriend, a husband, a wife, a mom, whoever is available and willing to do the work with you.

Daily Activities To Help You Heal

So much change can come from making these steps and then being bonded through doing that work together, as you both evidenced. I’m so excited, joyful, and grateful to have you here because you are willing to share how difficult that journey is and how genuine that journey is. The healing is profound, body, mind, and spirit. Thank you, Pablo. Rebecca, what would you like to add?

You were talking about the different ways that you can heal with reading, journaling, therapy, or working on it in your relationship. All of it is important. I think you need therapy or to work on it in your current relationship, if you’re in one, because the wounds happened in a relationship. The healing needs to take place in relationships. We always say to our clients, like we always give them homework. Whether they do it or not is another story.

We always give them homework because, as Pablo likes to say, therapy is one that you need to do a lot more work in all the other hours of the week to get there. That’s why we always encourage people to read books, watch videos, journal, meditate, and all that stuff. The other thing, and the reason that we’re called Connection Counselling, is because we believe that you need to heal the connection with yourself before you can heal the connection in your relationship.

I agree with you wholeheartedly. On so many things, including my clients, I do the same. I give homework. I am not necessarily invested in whether they do it or not. I give it, and they don’t have to report back to me. I’m not their school teacher, but what happens? I agree with you. You have 50 50-minute or an hour session, sometimes an hour and a half, whatever it is. That tiny fragment of time amidst an entire week and all the decades before getting into therapy is just a raindrop.

They have to take that work. It’s why every book I’ve ever written has exercises in it. You can read a book, but if you’re not doing exercises to flesh it out and flesh out underlying issues, then you’re staying at that surface level. You’re getting it cognitively, but you might not be getting it. Where we need to get it is in the body, in the soul, in the psyche. I appreciate what you’re talking about, Rebecca, and highlighting.

I want to restate what you said because it is so true. When damage occurs within a relationship, that healing must take place in relationships because then you re-experience something safe. A good example is somebody who grew up being criticized all the time. They hear criticism inside their mind. Somebody comes into the room and may say, “I like that shirt.” They don’t even hear, “I like that shirt.” They hear sarcasm or something like, “What’s the game here? You don’t really like my shirt.”

Only until that person can rewire themselves, trust that person is being truly connected and truly genuine, will they then slowly be able to hear a compliment as a compliment, and feedback as positive feedback, if indeed it is feedback. Many people with attachment wounds can’t even take feedback because it all feels like criticism. As they learn that this person is safe, or this person isn’t my critical mother or my critical father, this person really is there, that is a good example of how that healing takes place on a very small level, but it’s big. Thank you for highlighting these core pieces.

Determining “Me Issues” from “Them Issues”

I wouldn’t mind adding something to that if that’s okay. That’s an important point where people who have insecure attachment tend to be attracted to people who have insecure attachment. You have this sometimes avoidant-anxious. Sometimes it’s avoidant-avoidant. There are different dynamics, but they are always insecure.

We all do this. We typically are attracted to somebody who reminds us of our parents, where the attachment wound happened. It’s difficult when you’re in it, when you’re not healed yet, or when you’re going through the healing journey, to decipher “Is this me and my perspective? Maybe I am too sensitive to criticism, and that wasn’t a criticism. The reality is that it wasn’t a criticism, but my perspective is that it was a criticism because my perspective is warped because of my insecurities.

For example, if you were criticized as a child, then you probably have an avoidant attachment style, and you’re sensitive to criticism. You may end up with an anxious partner who is very critical. Sometimes it is the reality, and your partner is criticizing you, then when you’re going through the healing, it is tough sometimes to decipher “Is this a me issue or a them issue?” You then don’t know how to address it. “Do I address this with myself and try to self-soothe, and talk myself down from this, or do I address it with them?”

That was beautifully put, Rebecca. You’re right. That is such a big piece of it because if you are with somebody who’s highly critical, then it is retriggering the old attachment wound. The person may not mean to be doing it. It often causes those serial relationships where the person keeps getting into relationships with different people, but the same type of dynamic. We’re using the example of criticism, but there are many examples. When they do get into a relationship with somebody who has done work, is securely attached, and is non-critical, that is especially when it’s difficult because they’re so used to that pattern of pick, pick, criticism, criticism. That’s all they hear and see.

You’re right, what do we do then? Do we go and heal ourselves? Yes, always. That’s the piece you were talking about. When we heal ourselves, then we start being able to see with clearer eyes. We can ask a partner if indeed they are critical, “Can we go to couples therapy?” This dynamic, or “Can you do some individual work, and then we can do some couples therapy?” If the person is truly not critical, then they realize, “This is more of my work. That’s all it is. I’m not good, bad, right, wrong. I just need to keep plotting through my work.” Thank you for calling out these important pieces.

Push-Pull Dynamic Of The Anxious And The Avoidant

Let’s take a look at today’s question. The individual who wrote in, I don’t know what their gender is, but they’re writing in about their girlfriend. This girlfriend wants to be connected, but this person is being told that they are avoidant. They gave us the example of “I’m clean. This person is messy. They want to talk through the issues, but I don’t see any need, and even bothering.” Can you each speak a little bit to that? Pablo, let’s start with you, please.

Rebecca mentioned the push-pull dynamic of the anxious and avoidant. As I mentioned earlier, some avoidant people are very hypersensitive. They avoid conflict at all costs. They have a hard time expressing what they want and what they need. I find that some avoidant people also like to slow everything down. They want to control maybe one, two, or three things in their lives. Anything else more than that is chaos.

To me, it’s almost like when they’re maybe they’re partner comes in and they get a facial expression, a mood, or anything that comes in, and it’s triggering them. They are also hyper alert to that. Maybe it sounds like it could be a little bit of chaos that’s going around, then it’s interpreting. If a rumor is happening, it’s happening to them. It’s not necessarily what their partner is doing. It could be something where she could be toning it down.

One of the things with couples coming together is that they have to be vulnerable. Vulnerability is about being brave, courageous, compassionate, and connected, and realizing, “What’s going on with my partner,” and vice versa. When you experience that, that’s when you truly come together, and you start to grow, both of you. It’s something that he has to be brave and courageous to sit there, understand, and try to absorb it in a way that doesn’t feel defensive, because something is happening with them when they are being triggered.

Absolutely, Pablo. Thank you for that and for slowing it down there. Often, when there is a big attachment wound, that person with that extreme sensitivity, everything is about them. They perceive something said that it’s about them, or they did it wrong. They can get very reactive. Sometimes they close down. Sometimes they get big and aggressive. That place where we were talking about learning to meditate, learning to slow things down, learning to pause, that then gives you the ability to reset, and then come forward openly, courageously, and with empathy for yourself and the other person.

That is where the healing work is done. When there’s insecure attachment, being hyper-reactive, hyper-alert, or hypo-reactive, going into that freeze response, can be a common go-to. That’s why skills in the mindfulness realm, and not to overuse the idea of mindfulness, but learning to notice the dynamics and not react, because if we’re reacting, we’re generally going back into those old pathways that are well-worn and often unhealthy. Thank you, Pablo, for slowing it down. Rebecca, what would you like to weigh in on?

It sounds to me that because the partner who is messy wants to always talk about it, it makes me think that they’re probably anxious. The partner who wrote in is probably avoidant. What I would say is that what’s probably happening is that something is going on with the anxious person. If there’s a mess externally in their lives, there’s probably some sort of mess going on internally. There’s some sort of chaos happening. They are overwhelmed. Often, anxious people have way too much on their plates, and then things fall off. Maybe that’s the mess.

He might be accurate that she’s messy, and that’s not fair in a relationship. Obviously, it’s going to happen from time to time, but if it’s an ongoing issue, then she should do her part to work on that for him. What’s happening for him is exactly what you said. He’s reacting to that because he sees it as chaos, and that is triggering for him, so he’s going to a safe zone, which is shutting down, and then the dynamic starts.

When he shuts down, that triggers her fear of abandonment, and then she starts chasing. When she starts chasing, then he gets triggered because he feels overwhelmed by her, probably suffocated, and all of those things. The avoidant wants to detach for safety, and the anxious person wants to attach for safety. This is where the dynamic becomes tricky. When they’re stressed in conflict, they need different things. That’s why working towards becoming secure is the only solution. Otherwise, you have completely different needs for safety.

That’s beautifully and succinctly put. It’s so true that you have these two different baseline beliefs. For the avoidant, “I will be safe if I run or if I detach.” The anxious person is so anxious about that relationship. “I will be safe if only I can connect. If only I could attach, they won’t abandon me. They won’t leave me.” Those two things are very much at odds. I love the way, Rebecca, how you talked about the mess. Often, with somebody who is externally messy, there is that chaos or that messiness inside.

I’m actually speaking about me, but also many people whom I’ve worked with. Ages ago, I learned that if I could keep my external world, or if I could make my external world beautiful and everything in place, and how it look perfect, that would make my messy, chaotic internal world feel better. The outside could sometimes be hyper-controlled as a response to the internal messiness. As that is healed, whichever way it’s coming from, then you get a little more gentle with the external messes on both ends of the spectrum.

We’re going back to what you both started with, doing the internal work, then the external messes aren’t that big of a deal. We don’t need to control them to feel safe. We can have our preferences. We can like things clean, and we can then do the work of couples, which, as you were saying, Rebecca, comes to an agreement. There’s got to be a middle ground somewhere between absolute perfection, Clorox tidiness, everything is in its place, and things “thrown everywhere.” I like how you’re looking at this, as the internal chaos can be reflected in an external state.

How Messiness Can Lead To Greater Connection

There’s another piece that I was noticing that I’d like you to speak to. We’ve talked about how this couple is in constant conflict. It sounds as if that’s what they’re bringing up. Having differences in relationships is normal and natural. It’s how we deal with the differences that makes such a big difference, and how an issue like this, even though it’s about external messiness. Let’s talk about how the discussion about the messiness can lead to greater connection if the discussion happens in a clear, courageous, gentle, and empathic way. Pablo?

This is just my personal view. In my experience with vulnerability, it was terrifying for me to become vulnerable because the underlying narrative of giving 100% of who you truly are to somebody is terrifying. I find that avoidants have these walls in front of their hearts and their bodies. It’s like, “I can’t,” and so they protect it. It’s really hard for it to start breaking down those walls. It’s challenging. From my perspective, we are all wired for connection. When you heal your relationship, you restore that trust, the safety, and the emotional closeness. That also strengthens your sense of belonging and also reducing your your sense of loneliness.

Rebecca and I are a good example of how we can start to come together and mend the relationship that we had. I would never have thought, five years ago, that we would come to a place where we are now. Our arguments used to be me running. I would run out of the house. Now, it’s a discussion. It’s very important that we start to reflect on ourselves. Going back to your question, when you start to do the internal work, you can see the difference in your partner. Something starts to change in your partner as well. It’s just an example of “Let me just not run. It might be a little terrifying. It might be chaotic, but if I just sit and listen to my partner for five minutes, it’s followed by, “Thank you for not running. Thank you for staying. Thank you for listening.”

All of a sudden, something happens inside of you that is so empowering. “Oh my gosh. That’s all I had to do? For 30 years, I just ran. Now, is that it?” That’s empowering because, all of a sudden, it encourages you to do that. What else is there? You become, “This is how we tackle it.” It’s one little sliver at a time. That’s how you get to a point where, hopefully, fingers crossed, you just keep going. Do the hard work, and this will pay off. You feel so much better. Twenty percent of who I was five years ago, compared to 90% who I am now, it feels so much better.

Avoidant people, anger, aggression, and rage are often very close to them. The distance of happiness, true joy, and excitement is too far in the distance, but they can attain that. For me to grab onto that, and that’s what I used to grab onto. Now, it’s like, “Let go,” and things don’t bother to make. All of that has been lifted. It’s only because of the relationship I had with Rebecca that helped me to heal, and not only with the relationship with her, but also with the people around me, my family, my friends. As I explore the world, I’m healthier, more secure, and happier. That is worth going through everything.

Pablo, thank you for being so genuine and vulnerable. I want to highlight what you were saying and the vulnerability. It does speak to the listener’s question because it’s at the root. When you go to the root of the attachment issues, realize you’re not to blame. This isn’t a blame or shame game. It’s not about blaming your parents or caregivers. The way I look at it in my book and in my work is, what did you learn up believing what love is? If love equals criticism, love equals abuse. Love equals hatred. Love equals rejection. Why the heck do you want to let somebody close to you in intimate relationships? No way. That’s not.

This is all happening unconsciously. As you’re growing up, you have love equals abuse, or love equals abandonment, or love equals criticism. If you are in relationships with people who maybe don’t have a good moral compass, are critical, or are unkind, all of that early programming is getting unconsciously reinforced. If you meet somebody who is genuine and true blue, even if they have some attachment issues, you run like heck because that’s unfamiliar. The other stuff, or the mean stuff, is familiar. The kindness, the empathy, the genuineness, that’s going to be unfamiliar.

If your equation of love is love equals kindness, that’s not going to ring true. It might feel a little bit scary. Probably you’ve done an excellent job of illustrating how that works. Relationships will bring up the work. I’m going to focus on this listener. We’re not talking about doing this work with someone abusive. It will not work if you have an abusive partner or a partner with such low emotional intelligence that they can’t get what you’re trying to do.

They can be shutting down, and you’re working and working, and it’s not paying off. You need to be with someone who’s also doing their work. It’s not about being perfect, but doing their work, and then that’s when the healing can happen together. You’re working on yourself, and you’re working in the relationship. Pablo, that’s beautifully put.

The Importance Of Co-Regulation In Healing

I am so grateful for your vulnerability because there’s nothing like hearing someone, particularly a man, talk about this stuff in a genuine way. Women were a little more accustomed to that, but hearing it from you, I’m so grateful. Thank you. Rebecca, you might have something to say about what we talked about, and please weigh in. Before we start wrapping up, I would love for you to talk about something we just alluded to, which is co-regulation and the importance of co-regulation, which can only happen when you have two people doing their work. Please offer anything you want to say about what we discussed, and then co-regulation.

With the person who wrote in with their question, that’s exactly what they need to do. The avoidant person is sort of avoiding his messy partner when she wants to talk, but they need to co-regulate each other. In that scenario, that would look like the partner who’s avoidant would try to, as Pablo was saying, stay and try to understand what’s happening, what the chaos is that’s happening for their partner, and try to help soothe them. Try to understand their anxiety, and try to calm them. The anxious partner would offer to give the avoidant partner some space.

That’s at the beginning. What you want to work towards is being able to stay. The avoidant person needs to work towards staying, and the anxious person needs to work towards not clinging or chasing. You then come to a place where you can be together, and you can empathize with each other, talk about it, and say, “What’s going on for you right now, and how can I help you?” Pablo is so good at grounding me and calming me down. Something as simple as maybe putting his hands or hugging me. Sometimes he’ll put his hands on my head, and it’s grounding. It helps calm me down.

The anxious person can try to give the avoidant person some space. For example, avoidant people sometimes, depending on how much stress is going on in their lives, it’s a spectrum. They might need a little bit of space and time in separation or disconnection, or they may need more. Basically, in our relationship, I will check in with Pablo and say, “Do you want to do a boys’ night out, or do you want me to go up with the girls so you can have some time alone?” I want to check in and make sure that he is able to regulate his emotions. Sometimes disconnecting helps him calm himself and helps him from feeling overwhelmed.

Well put, Rebecca. It’s so important. For the audience, we’re talking about co-regulation. We’re talking about the opposite of running or chasing. We’re talking about coming together and co-regulating, getting your nervous system to a nice, calm, non-reactive level in a way that meets, maybe not perfectly, but helps meet each person’s needs. For the anxious person, that flight, as Rebecca said, is learning to be able to stay and breathe. Maybe even have a mantra, “I am safe. They may perceive the partner as the tormentor or the critical person, but they can say, “I’m safe.”

For the anxious person to do their work, which might be something as simple as taking, at first, baby steps. “I’m going to go outside and give you some space. I’ll be in the yard or on the porch doing some deep breathing.” Something as simple as this, I found, is healthy. Oftentimes, when there are disagreements, there’s no agreement about how to disconnect. A time out is often such a precious respite for both.

Being able to have language around timeouts, such as “I’m going to go take a walk around the block. I’ll be back in fifteen minutes. I’ll check in with you when I return. We’ll see if we’re both in a better state,” or “I’m going to go take a drive to the store. We need milk anyway. I’ll be back in half an hour. I’ll have my phone with me, so you’re totally able to connect with me.” Those sorts of basic reach towards co-regulation, empathy, courage, connection, those things help rewire the childhood patterns, all of those hurt and broken pieces, something as simple as an agreement on “Let’s do this together.”

The Role Of Self-Reflection In Healing

Thank you for highlighting these pieces. Anything else, either of you? We could talk about this for hours because there are so many moving pieces in relationships. It’s different for every couple. It’s about taking the time to create little conscious agreements, rather than reacting from childhood programming, or former relationships that were unhealthy. Creating agreements and co-creating agreements that feel good in this relationship. Any other pieces, Pablo and Rebecca?

The last piece I would like to add and remind is that healing requires self-reflection, empathy, and accountability. These skills not only help repair your relationships, but they also help you grow as an individual. That’s very important. Be brave and courageous to ask yourself, is it here now that you change? If it is, it’s going to be hard work, but I can guarantee you, it will pay off. You just have to stick with it.

Thank you. I agree about the self-reflection. If we don’t reflect, we don’t learn. The self-reflection, whether you’re doing it on a walk, whether you’re journaling, putting aside that critic and just free journaling, without letting that critic come in, and beats up a little bit more, that self-reflection and the empathy for yourself and for other people, and the accountability. I’m not a believer in shame or blame, but I am a big believer in using self-reflection to be able to dive deeper into, “What was my part in that? Did I have a part in that? If I did have a part in that, how can I be accountable in a wholehearted way? How can I apologize, mean it, and make amends if amends are necessary?”

Thank you for highlighting that, Pablo. In my opinion, a lot of people think that being accountable, taking responsibility, and apologizing are their weaknesses. I see them when it’s an appropriate apology, when it’s coming from your heart, I see that as not only healing to the self and the relationship, but as an act of courage. Sometimes when we’re doing something that feels uncomfortable, but we know it is right, it can be a factor of courage, so thank you. Rebecca.

Turning Triggers Into Curiosity

Self-reflection is key, and also the empathy part. When we get triggered, we’re so quick to blame and judge the other person. If you can turn that into curiosity instead and say, “They did this thing that triggered me. I wonder what’s going on with them? Why did they do that? Why are they acting that way?” Just ask without judgment in your tone. That is key. “What’s going on with you? Are you okay?” It’s that kind of thing because then you can start to understand the other person. Once you understand what’s going on for them, it doesn’t feel like an attack on you.

That might sound like a simple point, but it’s a big one because when there is that empathy and that self-reflection, and we’ll keep using the example of criticism because it’s such a common one, if your partner says something that you perceive as criticism, you get to say, “I feel criticized when you said X, Y, or Z.”

You’re healing yourself, in a way, by verbalizing what you heard. You’re letting the other person look at that in a non-judgmental way and say, “When I called you this or that, I can see how you would perceive that as criticism. I am so sorry. I will steer clear of doing that again. I heard this a lot as a kid, so I think it’s in my programming. I’m not excusing it, but if I do it again, please call it to my attention because I want to work to get that out of my vocabulary, because I can see that it hurts you, and I love you. I don’t want to hurt you.”

Episode Wrap-Up And Closing Words

If we learn to make sincere apologies, believe it. I’ve been there. We are healing ourselves as we are healing the other person and their wounds. We are therefore healing the third of the relationship. It’s such a win-win. You two are amazing. I am so delighted that you shared such beautiful parts of your practice and your personal lives with me, with our guests. What a privilege. Where can people find you and your amazing work?

We are on YouTube. We have a Connection Counselling YouTube channel. We’re on Instagram, Connection Counselling as well. They can also visit our website, which is Connection Counselling. Because we’re Canadian, Counselling is spelled with two L’s, and we are .ca because that’s Canada.

For the audience, Rebecca’s name is Rebecca Webster, and her husband is Pablo Alvarez. They are Connection Counselling. You will be able to find them on YouTube, Instagram, and their website. Thanks again, you dynamic duo, for joining us. What a joy and privilege.

Thank you very much for having us.

It was such a privilege. Thank you to both of you, truly. What a blessing. To our audience, thank you so much for joining us. It’s such a privilege, such an honor, and such a joy to connect with you in each of these episodes. This is Imperfect Love.

Important Links

• Connection Counselling’s website
• Connection Counselling on YouTube
• Connection Counselling on Instagram
• National Alliance on Mental Illness
• The Joy of Imperfect Love
• Dr. Carla Manly’s Website
• Dr. Carla Manly on Instagram
• Dr. Carla Manly on X
• Dr. Carla Manly on Facebook
• Dr. Carla Manly on LinkedIn
• Dr. Carla Manly on YouTube
• Dr. Carla Manly on TikTok

About Rebecca Webster

Rebecca Webster and Pablo Alvarez both carried childhood trauma that showed up as insecurities and maladaptive behaviours in their relationship. For years, their marriage had struggled in the background as they focused on their careers—Rebecca as a television producer, and Pablo running a successful aquaponic farm.

Everything changed when Rebecca’s mother passed away after a battle with mental illness, prompting Rebecca to reevaluate her life and become a psychotherapist. Around the same time, Pablo’s business collapsed during COVID, forcing him to confront his own emotional wounds. Both experienced personal upheavals that turned their focus inward.

Through therapy, meditation, self-reflection, and journaling, they began to heal—first as individuals, then as a couple. Pablo went on to study meditation at the University of Toronto and started working with Rebecca’s clients. Inspired by the transformation he saw in himself and others, he became a Life Coach and Counsellor.

Together, they founded Connection Counselling to help others repair their relationships with themselves and those they love. In October 2024, they launched a YouTube channel to share their insights and support more people on their healing journeys. Currently at over 45,000 subscribers, their YouTube channel is engaging audiences all over the world.

About Pablo Alvarez

Rebecca Webster and Pablo Alvarez both carried childhood trauma that showed up as insecurities and maladaptive behaviours in their relationship. For years, their marriage had struggled in the background as they focused on their careers—Rebecca as a television producer, and Pablo running a successful aquaponic farm.

Everything changed when Rebecca’s mother passed away after a battle with mental illness, prompting Rebecca to reevaluate her life and become a psychotherapist. Around the same time, Pablo’s business collapsed during COVID, forcing him to confront his own emotional wounds. Both experienced personal upheavals that turned their focus inward.

Through therapy, meditation, self-reflection, and journaling, they began to heal—first as individuals, then as a couple. Pablo went on to study meditation at the University of Toronto and started working with Rebecca’s clients. Inspired by the transformation he saw in himself and others, he became a Life Coach and Counsellor.

Together, they founded Connection Counselling to help others repair their relationships with themselves and those they love. In October 2024, they launched a YouTube channel to share their insights and support more people on their healing journeys. Currently at over 45,000 subscribers, their YouTube channel is engaging audiences all over the world.