If you’ve ever been betrayed by a loved one, especially a romantic partner, you know how deeply painful it can be. When those we count on most betray our trust, it can take years to process the betrayal, heal, and move forward. So if you’re aching over a new or old wound stemming from disloyalty, know that you are not alone. Today, I’m joined by an amazing expert, Joe Sanok, a licensed psychotherapist, author, and podcaster, who will share his journey of betrayal with us. Joe will take us through the process of how to heal so you can open your heart to those worthy of your trust.

Topics discussed include betrayal, infidelity, parenting, single parenting, marriage, divorce, children, anger, resentment, disgust, Gottman Method, The Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse, stonewalling, criticism, contempt, defensiveness, cheating, honesty, transparency, healing, apology, amends, trust, and support.

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Please note that this episode contains sensitive material; listener discretion is advised.

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Joy From Fear: Create the Life of Your Dreams by Making Fear Your Friend

Date Smart: Transform Your Relationships and Love Fearlessly

Aging Joyfully: A Woman’s Guide to Optimal Health, Relationships, and Fulfillment for Her 50s and Beyond

The Joy of Imperfect Love: The Art of Creating Healthy, Securely Attached Relationships

Imperfect Love Relationship & Oracle Card Deck by Dr. Carla Manly:

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Healing From the Raw Pain of Infidelity & Betrayal

If you’ve ever been betrayed by a loved one, especially a romantic partner. You know firsthand how painful it can be. When those we count on most betray our trust, it can take years to process the betrayal, heal, and move forward. If you’re aching over a new or old wound stemming from disloyalty, know that you are not alone. I am joined by an amazing expert who will share his journey of betrayal with us as he discusses how to heal and open your heart to those who are worthy of your trust.

For this episode, we’ll focus on this reader’s real-life question. “My wife cheated on me. It’s been a year, and I can’t get over it. She says it’s my fault for not giving her the love and attention she needs. I’d leave her if we didn’t have kids. Is it possible to be a good dad when I’m so angry and disgusted?” With that issue as the focus of this episode. Please note that as this episode contains sensitive information, reader discretion is advised.

I am so excited to be joined by Joe Sanok. Joe is a licensed Psychotherapist. He’s the Owner and CEO of the Practice of the Practice and Great Lakes Online Counseling. Joe is also the author of the book Dating After Betrayal. Welcome to the show, Joe. It’s such a pleasure to have you with us.

I am so excited to be here with you.

It is such a joy. I appreciate that you’re going to be able to help us go through some of these painful and sensitive issues in both a clinical sense, but also from that felt, personal sense. From my own experience as a clinician and a human being, when we have that personal sense of whatever a client is working on. Even though it’s not part of the subject matter generally during a session. It’s so interesting when there is that same felt experience. Clients get it when we get them deeply on that lived experience level, even if we don’t mention it. Thank you for being with us. Before we hop into this important topic, could you tell our audience a little bit about what makes you, you?

There are so many things that make me, me. I knew this question was coming. There are so many angles to think of it. It can be roles that I am, hobbies that I have, or where I live, but none of those things in and of themselves are me. The collection of creativity, history, and being able to try to be a lifelong learner. I’m still sorting it out. It’s still a question that I ask myself frequently. Who is Joe Sanok? I would say I’m developing, growing, and shaping into something new.

That is a beautiful answer. I appreciate it because it reminds me of one of my favorite parts about accepting the journey of life. If you’re a curious person and willing to be constantly evolving, then that’s what the journey is. There’s never an end to it. It’s a constant evolution. It ends one day when you’re not alive anymore. During our alive years, it can be so much fun to realize, “This is another step along the path. I’m going to do the best I can.” Thank you for sharing that.

How Joe Experienced (And Got Through) Betrayal

Let’s dive into your lived experience through the betrayals at whatever level you want to talk about it, so that we can weave it back to the question of the day. Which may or may not resonate with you. I know no matter what the gender of the person who writes in, it’s often the same story. It could be a marriage, a long-term relationship, kids, or no kids, but somebody has been betrayed and can’t “get over it.” I don’t expect people to get over betrayal, but let’s move forward.

I’m excited to talk about that reader’s question. I have a lot of ways I would deconstruct it that are expected and some that are unexpected. I always preface this by saying whatever I share here or publicly, my daughters already know. I have daughters. One’s a tween, and one’s a teen. It’s important that I go into any of these conversations saying, if they discover this, or their friends discover this, or friends of the family discover it, I’m not divulging anything that my ex didn’t publicly do before I did. To me, that’s important to anyone talking about betrayal to know who else is going to hear it. I like to start with that because I do think consciously about specifically my kids as I walk through this.

We went on a road trip in 2020 as a family of four. We were living in national parks, taking that time of the pandemic to have online English learning and Math learning, and having all the rest be natural learning throughout the national parks. We then landed in California. The quick version of it is that my ex ran off with a surf instructor. There’s a lot that we can unpack there. It honestly blindsided me.

I still remember the day. I was working on a show. I’m also a podcaster. We had this thing, which some friends had recommended, that we would say, “In a spirit of honesty and transparency, I want to ask you something.” That was a trigger word, like, “This could be difficult. I might say it wonky, but I want your honest feedback.” I said, “In the spirit of honesty and transparency, I feel like you’re distant.” She said, “This Psychology Today article will bring it all together.”

She texted it to me, and it said, “What to do when you’re no longer attracted to your partner.” It hit me. We had been in marriage therapy. We had worked on things. I thought it was one of those things where you’ve been married seventeen years, and it takes a lot of work. What I discovered over the coming months was that there was a lot more to the story and a lot more that wasn’t honest and transparent.

What happened was I got her an apartment and bought her a car. I didn’t want to abandon her in California, but I’m like, “I need to go home.” We went home as a family of three, pulling this camper all the way back to Michigan, and then started the divorce process. We can deconstruct whichever parts of that story you think are important for your audience. That’s where it all started for me.

I’m so sorry. That sounds incredibly painful. If I were in your shoes, I don’t know, honestly, that I would have the compassion or the wherewithal at the moment to give a partner a car or buy them a car or an apartment. Kudos to you. That says a lot about your heart. I can see where, for anyone who’s reading, that level right there of thinking, “How would I respond to that? Would I be able to be gracious enough in the moment to financially support them after that kind of betrayal?” How were you able to do that?

It came out in early February of 2021. I didn’t leave to take the girls home until early April of 2021. There were several months there. There were a few things in that period of time that I wanted to leave with the girls to do a shorter trip to feel like she had a chance to see what life without her daughters would be. Adults in their relationships change. They get divorced. That happens. To me, the bigger thing was not being around her own kids.

I took these girls on a 2 or 3-week road trip where we left the camper. We went to a bunch of national parks. We stayed in cabins. For me, that was the defining moment of feeling like I’m a single dad taking care of these girls. I’m establishing a new version of what this family is. The girls didn’t know at that time. Coming back, she still wanted to stay in California.

Every single morning, that light would shine through at 5:00 AM or whatever in the camper. We’re sharing a bed. It’s a camper. It’s not like there was an extra bedroom I could move into. For a millisecond, I would forget what was going on, and then I would wake up, and I couldn’t go back to sleep. I realized that to operate as a father, business owner, and podcaster, I had to figure out something.

Every morning, I pulled out the full toolbox. It would start with Sam Harris’s Waking Up app and doing meditation, journaling, and then taking some time to think about what was going on. I then would throw some coins to do the I Ching and read about Taoism. That became a great friend for me that hadn’t been a support in the past.

After that, I would go into physical activities. I’d usually go for a 2 or 3-mile walk, listen to Rage Against the Machine, and be mad. I’d come back and do some planks to make my body feel like it was getting that anger out. I would start my day after I had breakfast. It was one of these things that I needed all of the toolbox to feel like I could limp along throughout.

Over time, I shed a lot of those things. Focusing on what Joe needed during that time, for me, was so helpful to have as much clear headedness. I knew from my perspective that I didn’t want to cause additional damage as much as I could. I knew that divorce can be messy, but that I could have firm boundaries and still be a kind human from my side. I’m sure she would have a different opinion if she were on the show, also.

To me, these are two daughters who need to have a supportive father. The world needs people who aren’t terribly angry and trying to get revenge on people. To me, her blowing up the bridge behind her made it a lot easier to move on. We can go deeper if you want to, but I’ll leave it there for now to answer your question.

Thank you. I understand that this was all transpiring during COVID. You were out and about because we couldn’t go on with our daily lives the way we were accustomed to. Do you think it would have unfolded differently if you had been at home, and perhaps the person was a neighbor or somebody that she worked with? Do you think it would have been different?

I think it would have been a slower burn. There wasn’t the opportunity to blow it up as significantly. There had been enough other things that pointed to this behavior in the marriage that, to me, were concerning. This wasn’t exactly the first time that I was worried about this sort of thing. If I imagine that happening, where it’s a neighbor or someone locally.

In some ways, it’s a lot easier to have her live in California and then fly in once in a while to do her parenting time, and then fly home. I don’t have to run into her at Costco. I don’t see her at parent-teacher conferences. I don’t see her at the kids’ volleyball games. In some ways, even though it was so pronounced. It made it a lot easier than if it were a death by paper cuts if it was locally.

That makes sense. Now that we’re talking about it, if that happened to me, you’re coming from a different angle. I might have been willing to help the person with a car to keep them out on the other coast. I wouldn’t be doing it to be spiteful, but I would have been doing it to be protective of myself and the kiddos.

If she genuinely wanted to leave the relationship, I did want her to take the time to think through that. I was sick of the cycle of me feeling like things were relatively stable. It was like a B or B minus. It wasn’t terrible. It wasn’t great. It wasn’t anything with my Catholic upbringing. In my family, very few people get divorced, so I would have said, “I’m going to throw in the towel.”

I tend to be a person who will work harder and put my nose to the grindstone, which is something I’ve worked on as a result of this. I’ve been able to undo a lot of that toxic side of sticking with people just because you stick with people. I wouldn’t have thrown in the towel. This helped me to be able to recognize some of that and to say, “I want you to make this decision. I don’t want you to come back to the marriage and be in the same cycle where every 3 to 6 months, it feels like we’re on the brink of divorce.”

That makes a lot of sense. Looking at the reader’s question as well, it’s so important for people to understand, regardless of what their gender is. In relationships, it does take a lot of work. When we’re first in a relationship, there are generally lots of highs and sometimes some lows, but those highs. It’s the surges of feel-good neurochemicals where everything’s new, and everything’s wonderful. The sex is great, the conversation’s great, and every new date is a fresh start.

When we settle down into a long-term relationship, neurobiologically, we are missing that big influx of all of those dopamine hits and all of those feel-good neurochemicals that make people think this is what a relationship should look like day-to-day. If there are kiddos in the picture, life gets busy. It gets hard. There are a lot of extra chores that come with kiddos, such as helping them with homework, changing diapers when they’re tiny, feeding, and all of those messy things.

If your mind is still in that place of wanting all feel-good, which is not necessarily the most mature or holistic way to look at life and relationships. It becomes, “I don’t love you anymore. This isn’t fun anymore. Let me go find somebody else who’s fun.” They repeat the cycle. This happens in marriages. It happens a lot in dating because people are more disposable when dating is happening. You can get rid of somebody much more easily. You don’t have to file divorce papers. It’s these cycles of not wanting to do the work, thinking that the work is something that’s heavy.

Finding Ways To Rediscover Attraction In A Relationship

I often talk about it like gardening. If we want a lovely garden, there are times when it’s dormant. There are times when we’re doing nothing but weeding. My raspberry plants were growing incredibly. They take a lot to reign in and manage, but the raspberries were gorgeous. They were such a delicacy. That is like relationships. We have to be willing to put in that work, the same as we do if we have a motorcycle. I remember you might like motorcycles. Do you like motorcycles?

I don’t. My mom was an ER nurse, and she instilled a deep fear of motorcycles and snowmobiles in us as kids. I listened. My brother went the other way in his twenties, where he was into motorcycles. I’m not against them. I just feel like my mom instilled it like, “Don’t ever go motorcycling. You’re going to end up in the ER.”

I realized what I remembered. It was the Mario Kart piece.

That, I enjoy.

You’re racing in a different way.

For my daughters and me, that’s the one time that they’re allowed to swear and be mean to each other. I want them to learn to be able to turn it on and off. We’ll play Mario Kart, and they’ll get worked up. It’s funny and a good release for them to get all their swear words out.

Healthy outlets, which were a big part of your toolkit, which we’ll circle back to. When we go back to the relationship maintenance part, it could be psychotherapy, doing sessions with a partner whenever they’re needed, and not being afraid of that. We’re not afraid to take our cars in for an oil change. We aren’t afraid to fill them with gasoline. We might see it as an expense, but we don’t see it necessarily as a burden because it makes the car go. It’s the same with relationships. We have to feel the gas tank of the relationship.

Sending somebody an article that says, “I’m no longer attracted to you,” says a lot. I’m not saying anything unkind about ex-wife. I’m saying it says a lot about how she was letting things stew instead of coming to you and saying, “Honey, that sparkle is declining. Let’s find some ways to tend to it.” We cannot always, but generally find ways to find somebody attractive again.

That’s what was tough for me. I’m a Gottman-certified marriage therapist, so I knew all the research. I knew we had to be at the 5:1 ratio. Here are the four horsemen, and all these things that good couples can do, and I was helpless in that. We weren’t a good fit. Part of it is that when I was in my twenties, I bought into the whole 1990s purity movement, waiting until you’re married and didn’t experiment much. Part of that was jumping into a marriage when we should have probably moved in together. We probably should have dated a little bit longer.

I made quick decisions as a 25-year-old whose frontal lobe hadn’t even fully developed yet. That other side of it was when I did get divorced, my therapist was like, “Joe, you need to go screw around and act like a 19 to 22-year-old. Go to bars and see how that is for you.” I was stupid that summer. I biked downtown and would go out with friends. That dating world is terrible. I cannot idealize that and say, “I want to go back and relive my twenties.” That was scuzzy. It was not fun.

Maturity is saying I didn’t go through that developmental stage to enter into that marriage in a way that typical people would enter into it. In a lot of ways, I’ve had to be gracious with myself, even more so than with her, and saying, “You are a product of the religious upbringing, the school upbringing, and the area of Michigan you were raised in. You did your best within that system, followed those rules, and learned that those systems have not mastered everything there is about being human.”

I’m with you on that. I, too, was raised Catholic. I had a very large family with lots of roles. I’m going to play the devil’s advocate here. You might not, in that very constrained environment, have the opportunity to spread your wings and learn in healthy ways. I know many people who have had loads of freedom. They didn’t mature. They slept with everybody under the moon that they could access.

They did all sorts of crazy things. Yet, they didn’t have the framework that allowed them to engage in self-reflection and say, “This works for me. This is hurting other people. This is how I want to navigate life. I want to do more of this. I want to do less of that because I want to develop my empathy.” Even if you have no guardrails whatsoever, it goes back to having that firm, gentle teaching that allows you to make your mistakes, learn from them, and move forward. It can work in both ways. I know exactly what you’re talking about. It was much the same for me. I’m with you on that.

Becoming Comfortable With Your Vulnerability

Switching gears, I appreciate when we’re thinking about this reader who wrote in with such vulnerability. It was the last part where they were writing and saying, “I’m so filled with anger and disgust.” That hit me because it makes sense. If you feel anger and disgust toward your partner and you’re living with them every day, the partner’s going to feel it. You’re going to feel it. No matter how hard you try not to let the kids see it, whether they’re tiny ones or seventeen-year-olds, they are still going to feel it. What would you recommend for this very vulnerable individual?

I wrote down a couple of notes. Would you mind reading their question again? There were a few elements of it that I wanted to hit on.

Absolutely. “My wife cheated on me. It’s been a year, and I can’t get over it. She says it’s my fault for not giving her the love and attention she needs. I’d leave her if we didn’t have kids. Is it possible to be a good dad when I am so angry and disgusted?” That’s the question.

There are so many assumptions that I hear in this that I would first want to challenge. She cheated on him a year ago. He says, “I can’t get over it, and she says it’s my fault.” I would start with, how often do you get over something when someone says their behavior is your fault? You aren’t over it. She hasn’t taken ownership. She hasn’t talked about anything other than it being your fault. Every affair has multiple elements. It has two people who are married or committed, and one person breaks that.

There are dynamics there that came from me and my situation. I know that I’ve learned that I’m very clear and straightforward. I know my thoughts, and I’ll also debate those probably too much. I know that my ex tends to get pretty scrambled when it comes to organization and executive functioning. That can be a dynamic that then either feels threatening. She was raised in a very conflict-averse house, so it’s like, “I’m not worried about conflict because both my parents are fine with it.” There are elements there.

For this reader, your partner or wife isn’t taking ownership of it. There first needs to be a conversation of, “There’s history that led to this. Ultimately, you chose to have an affair.” It’s almost like a truth and reconciliation committee, similar to after a war. His saying, “I wasn’t giving love and attention,” I would be interested if I were their therapist to say, “What did they expect? What did you expect? Was there overlap there?”

If someone withdraws for two years, doesn’t show love and affection, doesn’t have sex, and doesn’t talk to the person is a pretty strong recipe for a divorce or an affair. Whereas if it’s a month or two, what was the agreement there? Were there honest conversations about what she needed? Did she speak up? I’d want to hash through all of that.

There’s the assumption of, “If I stick around for the kids, can I still be a good dad while I’m angry and disgusted?” Whether or not you’re with this person, you’re going to be angry and disgusted. There are times with my ex that the way she talks to me still makes me feel angry and disgusted. It’s unhealthy. It’s a reason that I’m happy I’m not in that relationship. You’re going to have to deal with that either way. That’s not dependent on you being in the marriage.

To me, I would ask a few questions, like, “Why am I staying in this other than for the kids? Do I want to reconcile with this person? Why do I believe that the kids will be better off living with two people who hate each other?” The other side of it is my kids have my partner, Claire, who’s an amazing woman who lives in my house. Now, it’s our house. She’s been in their lives for years. They have a very strong, positive female role model who is not a mom figure. She’s more like an aunt-type figure. She doesn’t get involved in the parenting stuff, and that’s good for them.

My ex’s surf instructor is an amazing example of a man to my daughters. He teaches them cooking. From what I hear from them, he is an amazing guy. It’s one of those things where we assume that the couple being together is best for the kids, but oftentimes, it’s not. That’s where I would start. I’m interested in where you would start with that writer or that reader.

I would do exactly what you’re talking about, starting with the part when a partner is blaming their infidelity on the other partner. It is that piece that we can’t heal from that which is not acknowledged. I don’t know the individual who wrote in. I don’t know how much he was present, how much he was trying, or how much was going on, but those would be the discussions to see not whether he was at fault, but, if anything, is there something he wants to acknowledge?

For the other partner, if that person were in the room to begin to heal a relationship, the person who betrayed, it’s ultimately on them to own up to the betrayal and give a full and complete apology that includes responsibility-taking and future behavior, or how they will behave in the future. Why is this stuff important? It’s not because it’s word salad. It’s important because it starts building that bridge of trust again.

I can imagine the wife maybe coming to a place where she says, “I realize I should have come to you first. It would have been ideal for me to talk, let you know what was going on, insist that we go to marriage therapy, and work through this. If I decided that you weren’t the guy for me, then after I’ve exited the relationship, I can have sex and relationships with whomever I want, but I don’t want to break the bond with you.”

As hard as it is, when somebody comes to us with a message like that, it is still much better to be open, honest, transparent, and respectful. You at least have that tethering the couple together. That’s one of the key places to start. I also agree with the other parts where you’re talking about not assuming that staying in a relationship is best for the kids.

You were talking about Gottman, which I’d like you to explain more to the audience for people who don’t know what Gottman is all about. If we’re stonewalling, which is 1 of the 4 horsemen pieces, shutting down, harming ourselves, or harming the partner because we’re not allowing discussion. The kiddos are learning, “This is what we do. When we’re upset with someone, we don’t talk about it openly. We don’t make it through it. We don’t keep the trust and safety of at least having conversations about it.” I agree with your approach entirely. I think it’s wonderful. Would you talk to our audience a little bit when you talk about being Gottman certified and the four horsemen?

I’ll hit on those. do. One thing came up as you were talking that I want to address. The idea of her not taking ownership also creates an environment where we don’t know if she’s going to do this again. If she’s saying, “When I don’t feel loved and have affection, I then can go have an affair. You are to blame for that.” That formula could happen over and over. There’s not even a commitment to not do that anymore if that blame is happening. I wanted to make sure I touched on that.

Thank you. Before you go to the four horsemen, I want to emphasize that because so many people get stuck on the whole apology thing. They’re like, “I don’t want to apologize. Apologies don’t mean anything.” Saying, “I’m sorry,” if your heart’s not in it, I agree. It’s nothing. If your apology is, “I am sorry. I realize what I could have done differently,” and acknowledge, “In the future, if I’m frustrated, not with you, or not finding you attractive, I’m not going to go cheat with the guy next door or the person at work. Instead, you can trust me. I’m going to talk to you about it.” They might be difficult conversations. It is that type of deep apology, even if it’s not about infidelity.

Let’s say it’s something where you forgot your partner’s birthday, or you were late for an important event. The apology formula is the same. It is, “I apologize. I take responsibility. In the future.” Let them know what you’re going to do in the future so they don’t suffer the same painful experience again. I am so glad you emphasize that because it is so critical. Back to the four horsemen.

It is having an agreement moving forward on what that even looks like. I had a couple. One of them was a traveling medical person, and they had an affair when they were on the road working somewhere. The other partner was like, “I need to have access to all of your online accounts. I want to see messages that happen on Instagram and Facebook. I want to have full access to know that you’re not doing this. I want to see if you’re on any dating apps. I want to know if you have another hidden email address.” Sometimes, you need all of that to say, “If we’re going to rebuild, I need to have full transparency.”

I’m going to lean into that.

That’s okay.

That comes up a lot when I’m working with clients. The partner who was unfaithful often pushes back and says, “That’s being clingy or that’s being invasive.” As I hope couples see, when you’ve injured someone, it is your responsibility, whether it takes 1 month, 1 year, or 5 years. Trust is hard to form. When it’s broken, it is hard to restore it.

It’s not that you’re just building a new bridge. You’re building a bridge where one of the people is feeling shaky on their side. If you think of a bridge from rock to rock, the rock has been so fractured. They want to build a bridge, but they’re unstable. You may feel great on your side of the bridge and be like, “It’s all fine,” but this person has been fractured.

I’m not a believer. I’ve seen cases where the person who was wounded will try to extract financial gain or gifts as part of it. I’m not a fan of that. I am a big fan of having that full transparency so that the other person can show compassion, respect, give affirmations, and not make it about them, but make it about the trust-building process. I think that’s critical.

Each couple’s got to decide, “What does this look like? Do I want to be with this person? If so, how do we rebuild?” There’s no timeline. Most restorative ice research shows that the victim is the one who defines what rebuilding looks like. Whether we look at building racial relations or other groups that have been on the underside of power. Usually, it’s not the person in power who gets to dictate how we get back to normal. It’s usually the person who’s been injured the most.

I used to work with juveniles on probation. A part of the process was them learning how to eventually, and this was the last part before they got off probation, make amends to the person they had harmed. In every case, it looked different. First, they had to learn how to make an apology. They had to draft it out and do several versions until they felt grounded and it felt authentic and real, so they could embody that sense of apologizing for what they had done and what it would look like to them in the future.

This is the critical piece when you’re talking about restorative justice. Some of them were able to meet with the victim. Some were able to mail the letter. Sometimes, they weren’t even permitted to mail the letter of apology that they had worked so hard on because it was in the victim’s hands. They got to choose exactly what, if any, contact they wanted with this person who had harmed them. It’s similar to any kind of betrayal. That’s why boundaries are so important to realize that, in some cases, in a marriage, a betrayal, a family, or whatever it is. The wound is too egregious for the person to ever want contact. That, sometimes, is the way it has to be.

We can go into the Gottmans, or we can stick with this reader.

The Gottmans And The Four Horsemen

Since we’re probably getting near the end, I’d love to wrap it up with a touch on the Gottmans and, more importantly, the four horsemen of the apocalypse. They are such important pieces to look out for in any relationship, but critically in marriages or other long-term relationships.

I agree. The Gottmans have been studying marriages and long-term relationships for 40 to 50 years. It’s the longest study on relationships. They’ve been able to discover so much about what leads to divorce, what doesn’t. Their books at the Gottman Institute, I can’t recommend them highly enough. One thing they talk about is the four horsemen. They are things that come into relationships that dismantle them.

The first is criticism. If you think about when your partner comes home and there’s a giant dent in the car. Is your natural reaction, “Are you safe? What happened? Is it icy out? Were there bad drivers?” or, “You’ve always been a terrible driver. Why do I let you use my car?” You’re criticizing their driving right away, which then quickly often leads to contempt.

Contempt is more about getting to the core of who someone is. It’s like, “Carla, you are always a sloppy person. You always leave your dishes out.” This is who you are at your core. We’re not talking about behavior. We’re talking about having sarcasm, ridicule, name-calling, making fun of people, and making them feel less than as a result of it. Those two things tend to lead to defensiveness. It’s like, “I’m not a bad driver. I’m not unclean.” It’s pushing back and defending ourselves so much instead of trying to get to what our partner is trying to say here, even if they’re doing it in a bad way.

Usually, that leads to the fourth horseman, which is stonewalling, where one or both people say, “It’s not even worth talking about. I’m going to be quiet. I’m going to let this person keep talking away.” It is like being a stonewall that doesn’t react. Those four are dangerous relationships. I imagine all of us recognize when they pop up. If this happens on an ongoing basis, it’s going to lead to people not having that connection and closeness that we all want in a relationship.

Thank you for outlining those because they are all so critical. It doesn’t mean we can’t have preferences in a relationship. It doesn’t mean we can’t have differences. It does mean that we learn to pick what’s most important to focus on. It might not be somebody leaving shoes in front of the door. Maybe you can move the shoes, unless you keep tripping on them.

Maybe it’s something like asking a partner. Instead of saying, “You never cook dinner,” it is saying, “Do you think you could maybe cook dinner twice a week? I’m stressed out.” It is that back and forth. The partner, instead of saying, “I can’t cook.” It’s saying, “I’m not very good at cooking, but I’m happy to order in twice a week if that makes it easier.”

It’s realizing that it’s not that differences evaporate. It’s how we approach the differences and talk about them. Often, not always, this is what happens when there’s a betrayal. Somebody has been stonewalling, not talking about things, not going back and forth, and then taking the path of least resistance in some ways, which doesn’t generally have a good outcome.

Agreed. We all have our habits and ways that we were raised that are normal to us. At lunch, my partner, Claire, and I were talking about the ways that we observed our parents dealing with not critique like the Gottmans, but any little criticism. In her family, and she’s Irish-Catholic, when something went wrong, everyone laughed at the person. They’re like, “That’s so silly.” It’s sometimes in a cruel way. In my family, it’s a lot more serious. My dad’s Polish. He’s not from Eastern Europe, but he was raised by people who were. There was a little more seriousness to them, where that criticism is taken more personally.

It is looking at how we deal with something when something bad or offensive happens. The two houses we were both raised in are so different. That’s one of millions of different things of how we naturally think, “That’s normal. I was raised in a house where conflict is fine,” but then you don’t apologize. I’ve had to learn that apologizing is important. That’s not something that I want to carry into the next generation. Often, if we don’t do our own work around it, we carry these things in without even realizing it.

Building Your Own Trusted Committee

One of the biggest forces, at least for me and for many of my clients is, breaking those intergenerational patterns that our parents and grandparents likely had. We didn’t know that we were carrying it on. Once we realize it, we go, “I want to do it differently for myself, for my kids, and for my partner. I want to do it differently for anyone who touches me in life as I walk through life.” Having that motivation can be lovely. I’d love to keep the discussion going. I know we have to wrap it up. Are there any final pieces you’d like to cover about this particular topic?

I want to go back to the reader who submitted his question. I sense a deep pain and a deep feeling like, “It’s not going to ever be better.” One thing that I write about in Dating After Betrayal is having your own, what I call, committee. I had all these guys who had different roles in my life. I had my mindful friend. He’s still on a different plane of existence, but he was the one who was very Daoist and grounded.

I had my angry friend who remembered all the things that my ex did over the years. He’s like, “Remember when she did this? You should have divorced her years ago.” I had my financial friend who’s like, “Make sure you protect this as you go through the divorce.” I had my going-out friend. We’d bike downtown together. He introduced me to a whole new group of friends who like going to bars. That was more of a temporary thing.

I had my after-the-divorce friend, who is probably 3 or 4 years ahead of me on his journey. He said, “It gets better. Here’s what the dating world is like for competent men in their 40s in Northern Michigan. There are not many of us out there.” I found that. I found, when I started dating, the fact that I didn’t shoot deer and post pictures of that, I like wine, and that I didn’t send naughty pictures to someone. Many times, they said, “You’re in the top 2% of guys.” It’s so sad for women in northern Michigan.

I had this friend who said, “It feels hard now, but it can get better, if not better than it ever was.” Having that committee, for me, helps fill in all those parts, the parts we talk about in IFS or things. It helps to have these different people that voices in my life, saying, “Here’s what to think about with finances. Here’s what to think about anger. Here’s the thing about mindfulness.”

When you invite people in like that who want to support you, then there’s that clarity of, “Is this the kind of relationship I want to be in? Do I want to live with someone who won’t even acknowledge that they had an affair for these kids?” That’s that person’s decision to make, but a lot of your friends, if you had a committee, would probably say, “What are you doing? You could be a great dad on your own.” That would be my guess. I don’t know that person’s situation, but it could be helpful to surround yourself with those kinds of people.

Thank you. I agree. I love how you explain it so eloquently as this committee. Some people have friends who can take 1 or 2 of those spaces. They can be your financial advisor, or at least your financial stabilizer as you get some exercise done. You can have one friend that you talk to on your morning walks. Whatever it is.

If you don’t have a lot of friends, there is support out there, whether it’s through online groups, hiking groups in your area, Meetup, or some other app. There are places. I know in our area, there are many support groups for women, but there’s something for men called MEN, Men Evolving Nonviolently. They can work on things in a very honest, deep way that is safe and contained. Remember that you don’t have to be alone during the process. Maybe you have good siblings or parents who can help you.

Many times, when we’ve been betrayed, we feel broken. We feel insufficient. We feel as if it’s like, “Am I not good at sex? Am I not attractive anymore? What’s wrong with me?” If you have a partner who is abusive, they’re going to try to make you feel that way. The idea is to get support. Get a committee around you of people whom you trust and whose opinion you trust.

If you can afford psychotherapy, which not everybody can, engage in psychotherapy. There are some great self-help books out there, including yours, Dating After Betrayal. It’s important to be able to move forward, not to get over the betrayal. We don’t ever want to get over things like it’s a rock to jump over. It’s about getting through it and getting to the other side. Sometimes, especially if you’ve had different betrayals throughout life, it can take a lot of time.

I love that idea of not trying to get over betrayal. It’s one of those things that you get through. It changes who you are. For me, it has given me a different filter in life that adds a different way of looking at things.

Get In Touch With Joe

Thank you so much for being so kind, vulnerable, and authentic with us. You are so wise. Where can our readers find you?

GreatLakesOnlineCounseling.com is my counseling practice. We have therapists who specifically focus on post-divorce, coparenting, and dating after betrayal. I also have a show, which is called Practice of the Practice. We cover all sorts of mental health and business issues on that show.

Joe, I so appreciate you joining us. It’s been such a pleasure. Thank you.

Thank you.

To our readers, as always, thank you for joining us. It is always my joy, my pleasure, and my privilege.

Important Links

• Joe Sanok
• Joe Sanok on LinkedIn
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• Great Lakes Online Counseling
• Practice of the Practice
• Practice of the Practice Podcast
• Practice of the Practice on YouTube
• Practice of the Practice on Instagram
• Dating After Betrayal
• Thursday is the New Friday: How to Work Fewer Hours, Make More Money, and Spend Time Doing What You Want
• Dr. Carla Manly’s Website
• Dr. Carla Manly on Instagram
• Dr. Carla Manly on X
• Dr. Carla Manly on Facebook
• Dr. Carla Manly on LinkedIn
• Dr. Carla Manly on YouTube
• Dr. Carla Manly on TikTok

About Joe Sanok

As a highly trained clinician with two master’s degrees and the founder of Great Lakes Online Counseling, Joe Sanok MA, LLP, LPC, NCC has also established himself as a leading figure in private practice consulting through his role as Founder and Lead Consultant at Practice of the Practice.

Through this organization, Joe helps fellow practitioners achieve their dreams of building successful practices that bring them true joy. Joe’s extensive experience and knowledge have earned him a global reputation as an authority in his field. He is the acclaimed author of “Thursday is the New Friday: How to Work Fewer Hours, Make More Money, and Spend Time Doing What You Want.” He is also the author of “Dating After Betrayal.” In addition to being featured in top tier publications like Harvard Business Review and Forbes, Joe is a frequent guest on podcasts, including the highly popular Smart Passive Income Podcast, which boasts an audience of over 100,000 monthly listeners worldwide. Over the last decade, Joe has conducted over 1,000 interviews with some of the world’s leading business leaders, scholars, and innovators, establishing himself as a highly sought-after interviewer and media personality.