We often believe that we need to be perfect–or at least nearly perfect–to be worthy and lovable. Yet from my experience, the constant striving to look or be perfect can actually erode self-confidence, mental health, and even physical well-being. In fact, I’ve found that those who make friends with their imperfections–those who strive to achieve a healthy balance between self-acceptance and positive change–tend to fare far better in their relationships, self-love, and overall well-being. Today, we’re joined by Erin Pash, CEO and Founder of Pash Company and Ellie Mental Health, who will explore the keys to fostering self-acceptance, authenticity and self-worth!

Topics discussed include perfectionism, self-love, acceptance, self-worth, worthiness, toxic comparison, judgement, blame, shame, envy, jealousy, relationships, family, friendships, girlfriends, social media, competition, well-being, mental health, boundaries, personal change, and transformation.

Please note that this episode contains sensitive material; listener discretion is advised.

Emergency Assistance Details: If you or someone you know needs immediate support, please call your emergency services. In the US, 24/7 help is available by calling “911,” “988” (Suicide and Crisis Hotline), or SAMSA (Substance Abuse and Mental Health Services Administration) at 1-800-662-HELP (4357). As applicable, additional resources may be provided in the show notes.

Non-Emergency Online Mental Health Information: https://www.nami.org/support-education/nami-helpline/ and https://odphp.health.gov/myhealthfinder/healthy-living/mental-health-and-relationships

IMPORTANT DISCLAIMER: No expert is offering medical or psychological direction or advice; the content is purely informational in nature. Please consult your physician or healthcare provider before undertaking any new regimen or procedure.

Connect with Dr. Carla Manly:

Website: https://www.drcarlamanly.com

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/drcarlamanly/

Twitter/X: https://www.twitter.com/drcarlamanly/

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/drcarlamanly

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/carla-marie-manly-8682362b/

YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@dr_carlamanly_imperfect_love

TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@dr_carla_manly

Books by Dr. Carla Manly:

Joy From Fear: Create the Life of Your Dreams by Making Fear Your Friend 

Date Smart: Transform Your Relationships and Love Fearlessly

Aging Joyfully: A Woman’s Guide to Optimal Health, Relationships, and Fulfillment for Her 50s and Beyond

The Joy of Imperfect Love: The Art of Creating Healthy, Securely Attached Relationships

Imperfect Love Relationship & Oracle Card Deck by Dr. Carla Manly:

Etsy

Amazon

Connect with Erin Pash:

Website: https://erinpash.com/, https://www.pashcompany.com/

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/erinkellypash/, https://www.instagram.com/peopleadvancingsocialhealth/

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/erin-pash

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Let Go of Perfectionism: SHINE with Self-Worth and Authenticity!

Let Go of Perfectionism: Embrace Self-Worth and Authenticity!

The Struggle With Perfectionism In High-Pressure Environments

We often believe that we need to be perfect or at least nearly perfect to be worthy and lovable. Yet from my experience, the constant striving to look or be perfect can actually erode self-confidence, mental health, and even physical well-being. In fact, I found that those who make friends with their imperfections, those who strive to achieve a healthy balance between self-acceptance and positive change, tend to fare far better in their relationships, self-love, and overall well-being. We’re joined by a wonderful mental health specialist who will explore the keys to fostering self-acceptance and self-worth.

We’ll focus on this listener’s real-life question. “I grew up in a high-pressure, competitive family to push me to try hard, but it was also very stressful. I’m 31 and finally see the impact of always trying to be perfect and the best at everything. This even chose up in my friendships. My friends and I got stuck in loops of trying to be perfect and outdo each other. There’s a vibe of constantly trying to be better than the next person. It’s exhausting, and I’m tired of it. Any tips to help me shake things up?”

With that issue as the focus of this episode. Please note that, as this episode may contain sensitive information, listener discretion is advised. If you would like further information, please see the links in the show notes. I am joined by an amazing special guest, Erin Pash. Erin is the CEO and founder of PASH Company and Ellie Mental Health.

Welcome to the podcast, Erin. It is such a joy to have you with us.

I am so happy to be here. Thank you for inviting me.

Thank you for joining us. Before we get going and talking about this really important and very common issue, can you tell our audiences just a little bit about what makes you, you?

Integrating Personal Flaws And Creativity Into Authentic Living

What makes me Erin and unique is my blend of being a licensed therapist, and I am an entrepreneur, and I am a mom, and a recovered perfectionist. I found a way to really take all those things about me, embrace them, and then put them out into the universe as creativity. Instead of living in fear of all the things that could make me feel inferior in life, I have found ways to turn them into wonderful ways to create, build, have human connections, and just overall embrace my flaws.

Kudos to you for having conquered perfectionism. I am a perfectionist. I call myself a recovering perfectionist because I am always working on letting go of that little piece that does not want to let go of me. For me, it is always a work in progress of trying to see those little perfectionistic tendencies come up and not lean into them as I am wired to do, but to lean away from them.

Good for you for having conquered that. Now, when we look at it, let us talk a little bit about your mental health work because you really have brought so much to the field with the clinics. You now have so many clinics where you offer support to people. Could you talk a little bit about how that entrepreneurial spirit led you to create more and more of these spaces for improving overall mental health?

Utilizing Humor To Break Shame Cycles In Mental Health

I started out in my career about fifteen years ago, at least professionally fifteen years ago. Before that, I did lots of social work-type staff. I was working in a setting where I really recognized that those folks who were really struggling with their mental health had so many comorbidities attached to the shame and stigma of just having mental health issues. It really limited their ability to engage meaningfully in their lives. I set out as a freshly licensed marriage and family therapist in Minnesota.

I said, “I want to open up a private practice or a group practice that can not only take really good care of the therapists in a world that was just a little bit of a mess for what opportunities therapists had, but I really wanted to create a brand that allowed people to show up authentically.” What I had found in my work with clients was that the best way to help people get unstuck in those shame spirals and just unstuck in that stigma space was to use humor.

I built a brand that brought humor into a mental health space, and immediately it resonated with people. It took things that could have been really hard to talk about and brought them to an easier level. In my clinical practice, I worked with a lot of high-conflict families and people who were really struggling to try and navigate, “How can I raise my children when I have all of this mental health stuff going on?” We were able to break down really tough things by just being human. It is like, if you do not laugh, you are going to cry, but we cannot spend our whole life crying.

Using that kind of as our North Star, we created a brand around that that really took off. It went from being content with a couple of clinics in Minnesota and satisfying that social pull, that social obligation to do my version of a group practice. It pulled me again and said, “I really cannot keep this incredible thing we built to myself.” We decided that we were going to expand it nationally. Within twelve short months, we went from having just twelve locations in Minnesota to 400 licenses sold across the United States to open up clinics. Ellie is operating around 250 clinics across the country.

What a beautiful reminder that doing good for the world can also be fun and something that becomes a lived passion. I also want to talk for a moment about your focus on bringing humor into the therapy room. I completely agree. Not only in my work does humor pop in and out of sessions frequently because that’s part of what lifts our spirits. I do not force it, but I do definitely make space for humor. You can also see the research behind it, the long-standing research that shows that when we bring in humor to therapy, to our relationships, to even high-conflict or low-conflict situations, it breaks things up.

Humor, if you have been ill and you are in the hospital or you are recovering, humor can help us feel better. It can improve the healing process, and that’s on a physical level, but it also helps, certainly, on that emotional level. We can often forget that the healing power of humor can be one of our greatest allies, not that we forget or ignore the hard stuff, because there is that fine balance. I know this is not what you’re talking about, but this is more for our audiences. It is not that we’re talking about covering up the difficulties with humor. It is about making space for humor to make the load a little bit lighter.

That’s exactly how I like to use humor in my work.

I imagine. Wonderful that you’re doing this great nationwide work to help people embrace who they are, heal from mental health struggles, and then free themselves to live the bigger, more authentic lives that they’re called to live. Let us pivot to the question of the day. When we think about the person who wrote in, I am imagining it might be a female, but as I often do not know the gender. When we look at this question, where a person was raised in a highly competitive environment, let us consider it the best environment.

This is not something I see frequently in my clinical work. I see these kinds of patterns frequently, yet I find it lovely that this person has the awareness to be able to step back and look and say, “I see it showing up in my friendships.” I do not know if it shows up in their work environment, but I imagine it does, and they can see that there’s this highly competitive energy between them and their close friends. This person is asking for some ways to shake it up or maybe get unstuck. How would you begin to delve into this really important topic?

I really resonate with it. It is one of those things where I think therapists were trained to be able to help any human being who sits in front of us. Yet there are certain situations that we can have even higher levels of empathy for, and those are people whom we personally relate to. When we are talking about feeling competitive and that female tendency towards perfectionism, even in our social groups, I relate to that. The biggest thing I would do, like there are a million things that come to mind, but from the beginning, is just validating that it is okay for this person to feel like that is frustrating.

To your point, self-awareness is probably the biggest thing. In my clinical work, working with folks with this type of issue, I have found that everyone in the friend group feels the exact same way. Yet they keep perpetuating this cycle and this pattern because they do not know how to cut it off. I have worked with clients, and I would tell this listener to first start with an honest conversation. If these truly are your closest friends, then you should be able to go to them about anything and talk to them. Maybe they do not feel the same way, but you cannot know unless you ask.

I would start with an honest conversation. If the listener did not feel like they had words for that, I would help them role model, like model and interact. How could this conversation sit and give you gain that person, give them confidence to say, “How can I go to my friends and just say, I am exhausted. I love you, and I am exhausted, and I do not want to do this anymore.” Just see where it goes? Friendships are things that grow so beautifully over time, and they also happen in real time.

Sometimes our friendships, when we start feeling exhausted, and maybe other people are not affected by the dynamic, sometimes that is also a call to us that we have changed and that it is time for us to move on or go in a different direction. If the friends came back and said, “We do not feel like it’s competitive, or we’re not feeling exhausted by it,” I would hope that they would create space to support their friend. If not, I would also be working with this person to say, “Where have things changed for you? Where are you being unfulfilled? Where can you look inside and say, “Is this still my same powerhouse of friends, or do I need to start deepening relationships in other places?”

Addressing Toxic Comparison In Friendship Dynamics

Well done, Erin. You summed it up so beautifully because you went into maybe that this person is starting to outgrow that friendship circle, and not in a judgmental way, but maybe their needs have shifted. Before we dive into that really important topic, I would love to go back to the part where you’re talking, you said it so beautifully, that to be able to say to the friends, no shame or blame, just say, “I’m feeling exhausted. I’ve noticed this dynamic. I’d like to change things.” Hoping that that is met without shame or blame or guilt on anybody’s part, but this acknowledgement that we are doing this thing. That’s a beautiful place to start.

As you were speaking, that thought came to me. I remember a conversation with some younger males that I know. They were having this group discussion about how they had gone to this big California music festival, I could name it, but not going to bother. They noticed that the females attending were so competitive with each other. This was a part of the dynamics I had never even thought of, because it’s not my way of being, but they were saying how they weren’t dressing up and putting on the makeup and doing the things to get the male attention, that they were really focused on out-beautifying or out-whatever you want to call it, attractive, being more attractive than the next person, whether it was a friend or somebody that was in a group next to them.

I thought, “That is a lot of energy to be putting into not just being your best self, because we always want to be our best self, which might be us without makeup, without fancy clothes, whatever it might be.” I remember thinking, “That’s a lot of energy put into a space that might not be really rewarding and trying to be that perfect, whatever you think perfect is, or compete with the other person that you’re maybe envious of or maybe want to outdo.”

Could you talk a little bit about this piece, where sometimes we unconsciously get into these patterns? It’s really hard when you have social media influencers. This is sometimes where a lot of this is coming from because it’s hard enough to be a person in today’s world without the social media and the advertisements saying, “Be more, look prettier, have perfect, more perfect skin, have a more perfect body, more whatever.” It is exhausting if you subscribe to it.

Understanding The Role Of Social Media In Modern Competition

The first thing that came to mind is that it’s so social media-driven because when we’re trying to have these artificial likes, and that’s what’s triggering our dopamine, we crave it. It’s more than just an addiction. It’s like how we’ve learned how to function in a society and how we communicate. I do not know about you, but when I was younger, and I would go to music festivals, the only pictures I ever wanted were of the performing artist or with my friends. Now it’s, “How can I get the best pose for my Instagram of just me?”

It naturally creates this out-competing for likes, like, “I have to have a better pose than the next girl. I have to have the better outfit, the more designer this, the this and that,” because they know that the intention of it is that people are going to see it. When in the past, it used to be, “I just want to capture it as a memory or throw it in a frame in my house.” It is really tough, and it is creating this be seen culture where they are not able to just be present and focus on, “Here are my connections right now,” but they are so accustomed to, “The connections that I have that make me feel good are of me and the way I interact with my online presence.”

The Impact Of Social Media Validation On Self-Worth

I agree, and I think it’s so important that we’ve paused here because, as you said, the focus before, if you had a camera with you, was, “Let me capture this experience, I can put it in a scrapbook.” Now research shows that some people take, sometimes over a hundred photos, to get the one right, Instagram-worthy photo. For me, social media is more of an obligation as part of my brand. I find that sometimes I will try like 1 or 2 when I’m doing a TikTok video or something. I’m like, “Whatever, it’s going to be what it’s going to be.”

It does not have to be perfect. Even if my dog decides to join me, as he has done, on our podcast, there’s a part where it’s like, “Freedom, it’s not been there.” He’s part of the imperfection. He’s part of the authenticity. When we embrace that, and instead of trying, I know my hair is always going to be wonky one way or another, and I used to try to tame it, and I’m just like, it’s just going to be what it is. It’s part of my imperfection. I’ll try and comb it, I’ll try and tame it, but whatever.

The more we embrace that balance, we want to look our best, we want to act our best, we want to be our best, but we can also let go of those parts. That’s why I say I’m a recovering perfectionist, because there’s still that little voice that pops up and says, “We want to try to learn then,” and then I have to work with it and say, “It’s okay, you can back off and just let it go. It doesn’t really matter.” That’s such an important part when we take it back to the question, that we can see.

I can imagine this group sitting, maybe having coffee together or being at the beach together, and instead of being immersed in the experience and the beauty of the experience, they’re actually immersed in what we used to call one-upmanship, trying to be better or have what the next person has. That naturally, when we’re focused more on other people or photographing the moment, whatever, it takes us away, we’re naturally taking away from that internal joy, that inner balance.

That voice that we ideally want to be really encouraging, that voice that says, “What is authentically me?” That’s what I sense through the listener’s question. I sense that that’s what they’re having, some internal awakening that says, “I want to work a little bit more on just being authentic. I’m tired of competing.” What do you think about authenticity as far as authenticity and imperfection and the connection to self-worth?

They are all completely interconnected. The one that is like the negative of those is the shame, the shame and guilt, and we’re all hardwired to have it, no matter how we were raised. We have been taught whether we have nature or nurture, whether we have been told or whether we just innately believe that there are things about us that are shameful because whether it is a deep and dark thought or maybe it is the thought of like, “Maybe I do think I’m prettier than my friend, but I could never let them know,” and we feel guilt about that. Also, our ego takes over, and things like that.

The reality is that I think it is hard to talk about this without the context of, in this particular case, what is happening online. We are not addressing the underpinnings, which is why so many people are online, and I am on it for a purpose. I am a business owner. I have a personality that people want to follow and get content from because it supports my business. If it did not, I would not be as present on social media. However, let us say you are a 23-year-old girl and you are fresh out of college and your job, and you do not have to be online for any reason, but you see all these other people, and you think, “They make it look so easy.”

That perfectionist tendency is like, “If they can do it, I can do it.” Maybe there is something glamorous about fame and fortune and achievement and climbing the elevator instead of the ladder to the top that I can get if I get the perfect picture of myself and the right person sees it. We need to undo this mentality that everybody is meant to be famous or an influencer. That did exist when we were kids, too.

You would see somebody on TV and be like, “Maybe I want to be an actress. They make a lot of money, and they must have this glamorous life.” I think kids these days, or even young adults, younger than me for sure, feel that way about influencing. They just are hardwired now to feel like, “I have to keep it up, and this is the way I do it.” It is the new Keeping Up with the Joneses. I know people are innately competitive.

It is like a dog-eat-dog world, and there is a very primal aspect of that. Yet I still believe that women deep down want to cheer each other on. They just do not know how, if they are trying to compete for this coveted spot. “If I do not post as many pictures as she posts and the other people aren’t seeing the right pictures, then I must have tunnel vision on myself so that I am the one who gets picked.

Cultivating Authenticity Versus The Trap Of Toxic Comparison

Thank you for taking us here because it fits with a question that popped up for me with something you said before. It allows me to circle back to it. You said something, maybe this might not be a direct quote, where the friends are sitting there, and one is saying, “I’m actually prettier than my friend.” That might be true, might not be true. That is the piece that I would really encourage audiences out there, not just the person who wrote in, but encourage us all to look at that voice of what I call the voice of toxic comparison.

If you’re worried about being prettier than, better than, I think you’ve automatically gone down a rabbit hole that does not serve you. You may be pretty, you may be gorgeous, and somebody may find you the prettiest one in the room, and somebody may find the person next to you the prettiest, and somebody may find neither of you pretty. It just does not matter.

When we look at it, if we go back to the authentic self and not into that place of comparison, and that’s why I call it, and I think it was in two of my books, I call it out as what I call toxic comparison, especially in my fourth book, The Joy of Imperfect Love, where I’m talking about when we get into these places. Anytime we’re comparing ourselves, we are down this rabbit hole where there is no win. It’s good to be able to discern on a very primitive level.

We need to be able to judge and discern what’s healthy and unhealthy, but our minds today have taken it to judging people and clothing as better or worse. We have this hardwired tendency, but I think it’s important for us to acknowledge it and pull it back more toward that place of survival. When am I doing this to notice the difference between a dog that’s going to rip me to shreds and a dog that wants to be petted? That’s a healthy use of really being able to distinguish between healthy and unhealthy.

When we’re doing it in matters of physicality, of appearance, I believe it’s helpful to be able to do it with behavior and say, “This is healthy and unhealthy.” When we get into physicality, I think that that is a big piece where a lot of energy, back to the wasting of energy. A lot of energy is wasted in ways that, in the short term and long term, really do not matter. What do you think about that?

I completely agree. Immediately, as soon as you bring back the word authentic, I think a lot of people nowadays do not know if they are authentically wanting this attention or not. I actually think there are people who do like it. Maybe they do not have enough real, deep connections or meaning. In the real relationships they have, they bring what makes them feel good, period, whether it is to be a perfectionist or to find this competitive edge. It comes down to, for me, like, you cannot really know your authentic self and where it shows up if you lack self-awareness to know what you are doing and what drives you.

There are some people these days, and I actually did a couple of articles in some magazines on looksmaxing, which is kind of the same thing, like, “How can I bolster my looks and just overachieve for the internet to see, to boost it?” People care a lot more about physical things and their looks and likes when they are lacking meaningful connections in real life. It is hard to know what feels real and authentic if you are not aware that you are doing it. What I would say is there are certain people I keep around me who will call me on my BS, no matter what, and keep me grounded.

Everybody needs to have those people because it is hard to get lost in what is authentic for me. I really love nice clothes. Fashion is like my slash job. I love it. I love dressing to the nines, I love the perfect outfit, and I even love putting my outfit online for people to see. To your point, I am not competing with anybody about it. I am just authentically doing it for me. I am self-aware that I am doing that because I love fashion. That’s the crux of it, taking it back a few layers, like addressing the why. Am I aware that I am even doing it?

To the audience’s question, like maybe the question to ask the friends is, “I’m New York style exhausted by this, and I don’t even know why I’m doing it.” Challenging friends to do the same, like, “Why are we? Is there something in our lives that we feel like we’re lacking or that we have to feel so inauthentic to ourselves to make it happen?” You have got to just peel that back a little bit because I do not think posting pictures of yourself online is wrong. It is wrong if you are doing it for inauthentic reasons.

I really love how you dove into the piece about your own fashion tastes and what’s important to you because I think that is a really beautiful example of saying, “This is something I love. I generally love fashion. It feels good. I love curating these outfits that feel right to me and feel uplifting and good on my body.” I think that that is a really good example of whatever it is that you love in life, whether it’s baking, whether you really love putting on makeup, whether you love doing hair, to be doing it for yourself and to please yourself, not some audience.

I think that creates not only more self-love, more self-awareness, more self-acceptance, because you’re doing something you love, and it doesn’t even need to be pretty or attractive to other people. Maybe you’re the person who loves being in overalls all the time, and you love finding worn-out overalls. That’s authentically you and what you want to do, then rock it. That is how we shine, not by trying to try getting inspired. This leads me to the piece I really love talking about, because so many people get confused. They think that jealousy is the same as envy, and that envy and jealousy are both bad.

I always slow down to say, well, first, jealousy is about feeling threatened in a relationship generally. Envy is about wanting what someone else has, whether it’s physical, whether it’s an item, whether it’s their body, whether it’s their face, whatever it might be. Neither is good nor bad. It’s what we do with our envy or jealousy that can be healthy or unhealthy. In this instance, let’s imagine that some of the girls or people are envious of each other. The unhealthy use is to go in circles, competing with each other, and spending loads of money and time that they may not want to spend, and energy creating an artificial front.

The healthy use of envy would be like, “I love how you did your hair. How’d you do that? Do you think that style would look good on me?” You might come to the conclusion that you can love that person’s hair, but it might not be the right style for you. When we engage in these deeper levels of the dynamics, we can actually come back home to ourselves, be more comfortable with our various emotions, our various feelings like envy and jealousy. We become more whole because we’re not splitting into this good/bad way of being. We become more authentic and well-versed in who we are as imperfect, albeit gorgeously imperfect human beings. What do you think about that piece of using envy for self-growth and motivation sometimes?

Distinguishing Between Healthy Envy And Unhealthy Jealousy

I had not actually thought about it that way. I personally believe that there is a level of competition that is good for you, especially in a day and age where people can, like we’ve also seen, people on the extreme other side, which is like lacking any motivation, lacking any desire to self-improve or to grow or to develop or reach in even identify a personal potential to even just try and get close to it. It can be great.

This idea of envy versus jealousy, for me, when you were talking about it, it comes down to this idea of owning what is inferior about you. I give this example. When I was a kid, I knew I was smart, but I was different. I was creative, I was a builder, but that did not make me smart in math. I went to a very competitive private school as a kid. I just felt like the dumb kid in the math class. It probably took me until I was in mid-level high school before I could just own it and be like, “I’m Erin, I’m bad at math.”

Nobody could make fun of me for being bad at math if I own this thing about me that is imperfect, or that I might have envy of other people’s quick-decision math skills, and all that kind of stuff. The second I was able to like my own that inferior quality, nobody could make me feel inferior. When I think about envy, I can use it as a guide or as a tool to help myself achieve. You can also use it as a great self-awareness tool.

I also used to go to this children’s clothing shop when my kids were little, and the girl who worked behind the counter had this beautiful blonde, short pixie fauxhawk. I swear to you, it was the cutest hairstyle I have ever seen, and I am 100% sure I could never pull it off. As soon as I could acknowledge that I was envious of this beautiful hairstyle, she had it. It looked easy, it was stunning, she just had the most perfect face for it. As soon as I was able to own, “I love that for you, and I know I’m never going to be able to pull it off,” I did not feel a certain way about it anymore, other than just pure joy that she was able to look stunning with this haircut.

Absolutely. That takes it back to that idea that envy, if we’re aware of it, if we make friends with it like other parts of our being, it can actually motivate us to try. We’re both talking about hairstyles in our examples. It can motivate us if we’re envious of a friend who got a promotion. It can motivate us to try harder, not to try and bring that person down, but to say, “They got a promotion.” On the other hand, if we really look at envy and not judge it and say, “She had to work sixteen-hour days for the past three years to get that promotion.”

You may reflect and go, “I’m actually happy for her, but I don’t want to pay that price. I want more work-life balance, so maybe I’m okay not having that promotion.” That’s the part where we really make friends with self-dialogue and then take it back to your beautiful point where we started some of this conversation. When we’re able to do some of this self-work, increase our awareness, and then talk, whether we’re talking to our friends, we’re talking to our partner, we’re talking to our family.

We can talk to them about the shifts that we want to see, the shifts that would make us feel more connected. Now we’re going into part two, and I know we’re getting a little closer to winding down, but I think we have enough space for this piece. That’s when we start seeing how our thoughtful, mindful, gracious questions are received by other people. Do other people blame us, shame us, try to put us back into some sort of hole?

Do they have the capacity, the desire to say, “This is a really good point, I would love to shake things up, I would love to work on creating more authenticity or kinder dynamics”? Please dive into that important part of when you move into any relationship, romantic, friendship, social, whatever it might be, and family dynamics are also a common one, where you’ve had these epiphanies, you realize some dynamics aren’t so healthy.

You bring it with kindness and gentleness into the space. It’s easy if it’s accepted, because if it’s accepted, then it can really shift things for the better for everyone. In many cases, the other people aren’t doing similar self-work or may not have had a similar trajectory. They may be very uncomfortable with the idea of not doing what they may have always done. How do you navigate this other than immediately disposing of the relationships?

Navigating Ambiguous Loss And Setting Healthy Boundaries

I think of two things, two concepts. The first one is radical acceptance and boundaries. It is accepted that I have shared my piece. I have no control over the other people in this dynamic, but I am going to still accept them in my life and therefore put up boundaries to help protect my energy from this competitive edge or from it tearing me down. I have to remind people a lot that there are a lot of people engaging in therapy, speaking on the internet, and stuff, using some of our tools.

I call it like using it against us because boundaries are for relationships you want to keep. Many people say, “It’s my boundary,” and then they do an emotional cutoff. That is not how you are supposed to use boundaries. Boundaries are, “The way that you show up in our relationship sometimes causes me pain, and I cannot make you change it because maybe that’s not authentic for you.” My boundary is that we’re going to cut off the night at 9:00 PM.”

I always go home, or we leave, or we only get together maybe once every couple of months instead of every weekend, because I need to protect myself from that. It is not for, “You hurt me, so now this is my boundary, and if you do not meet my boundary, we’re done.” It is a mutual respect piece. That is where I would go if these are relationships where somebody really does the work and realizes that they are important to them, and they want to keep and identify how to do both.

How can I both maintain their friendship and be true to what is important to me in my life, and be authentic to myself? If that does not work and you cannot make that work, then number two is grieving the ambiguous loss. People need to realize that it is part of their life, the entire spectrum of their life, to grow and have changing relationships. I see this a lot when I am talking, especially with parents about kids.

I see a lot of elementary school students who love their teachers, give them big hugs, and by the time next year hits or the year after they are in a new school, they do not maintain that relationship at all. For those nine months they are in school, that is a person they see how many hours a week and develop, especially young girls, they develop this affection for this person. I like to remind adults that adult life is no different. You could be working with a coworker with whom you really vibe, and you really get along, and then you see them outside of work, and that is just not what they do not feed that part of you that is met maybe when you are at work.

You go on to another job, and you miss this person, but you also know, “I only want to be with this person in this context,” and so you have to grieve that. We just do not spend enough time doing that as human beings and accepting that there are certain times in our lives where I can love and I can have an abundance in this connection. It is okay if I have to say goodbye to it, but I need to give myself space to do that.

The Importance Of Distinguishing Boundaries From Emotional Cutoff

Thank you for mentioning both of those pieces. I really love the part first about acceptance, stating what you have observed or what you want, what you need. If you really cherish the people, being able to stay in that environment while your boundaries are solid. In order to set boundaries, you have to know your boundaries first. Before you set them, you have to really look at whether I set this boundary, am I willing to hold fast to it?

That’s such an important piece, because if we do not keep true to that boundary, then people learn that we wobble from side to side, and that’s not healthy for anyone. I also love the piece where you talked about when we set the boundary, that sometimes people will say, “I’m cutting you off now,” or somebody will set the boundary and then cut people off when really a boundary is not an ultimatum. Sometimes, somebody doesn’t know they crossed your boundary if you’ve never explicitly stated it, or if it’s not a very common one, like, “You do not go in my purse.”

That’s an obvious boundary in most cases. It’s really that part where, and I agree with you, in today’s world, people use estrangement and cutting off as a defense mechanism and as a coping mechanism, and it’s really destructive to the self because the self cannot grow when you do not stretch and push yourself. The relationship cannot grow. There are times, of course, if somebody’s being incredibly toxic, where you do have to have that really hard boundary and say, “This isn’t going anywhere, I’m done” kind of thing, and that’s understandable.

I appreciate that you brought that up. I also really appreciate the piece about sometimes, and we’re preparing this listener, as you said from the beginning, sometimes we outgrow a friend group. Sometimes our needs are different, not judging the people who aren’t changing or shifting, but sometimes we just evolve as human beings and want something different. That doesn’t mean that anyone is bad or good.

I’ve noticed this with many people in sports. They really engage in a sport, and then they outgrow that, and they move to a different level. Not that people are akin to sports, but it’s a somewhat okay metaphor for the idea that sometimes we grow and we expand, and our psyche needs something else. Thank you for that really important piece. If it does become time to move on from relationships, to honor that grieving, because people often think that grieving is just about a physical loss.

My goodness, we can grieve relationships, whether they’re romantic, familial, friendship, or work relationships. We can grieve all sorts of things and make space for that and understand what the grief is about, which is losing those connections, those relationships. In some cases, you might even lose other relationships that are proximate. They are big decisions and ones to really slow down and take your time with.

It is, it really is. That ambiguous loss and that grief. I had a client once who actually, and I think about it every time you are talking about it. He was talking about getting divorced and watching his kids get older, and he was enjoying life but also struggling with that. He looked at me, he goes, “Do you remember the last time you picked up your kid?” I said, “No,” and I get the chills when I talk about it. He said, “You know what, no.” When you take a moment to grieve the loss of your children getting older and also the incredible gratitude you have for being able to watch your children grow and get older, it’s that both/and experience.

That is just like being a parent. It was so meaningful and impactful. I actually got tearful in a session, which I have maybe done a handful of times in my life, where it’s like, “I didn’t even take a beat to realize that I don’t remember the last time I picked up my child.” I think that’s the same way we can handle that in our friendships. We have to be aware. We have to have accountability partners, and people can help us say, “Is that friendship really doing what you think it is for you? Do you need to say no to it and move on, and then let yourself have the space to grieve that loss?” It can be two things at once that are both equally beautiful.

Embracing The “Both And” Experience Of Grieving Loss And Gratitude

I love how you’re making space as well for this next really important piece, that sometimes we can actually let go of a dynamic if the other people are willing to let go of the dynamic without letting go of the relationships. I’m thinking of several clients or many clients, but I’m also thinking on a personal level. Teasing was a big part of my family growing up. I was often the person or one of the people being teased. I’m not a big teaser at all.

I was invited as I got older, but I was one of the youngest. I was the ninth out of ten kids. There was this part of me that was like, “Can we stop this? This doesn’t feel good. This dynamic doesn’t feel good.” No one else in the family was ready to give up the teasing because it was part and parcel of what they believed was fun. When you run into dynamics where the fun is at somebody else’s expense, then we want to look at that. That’s where the relational aspect really comes in.

When going back to the listener’s question, when we look, and we say, “She’s not finding this fun anymore, maybe at one time it was great and elevating and felt enriching to outdo each other,” but they’re having some epiphany that’s saying, “This isn’t fun anymore. In fact, it’s exhausting.” By bringing it forward, some of the other people may say, “Let’s put our energy into different places.” Some may be saying, “No, we like this. You like this.” Maybe they can just agree, if they want to keep the friendships, to let go of that one particular dynamic just in the friendship settings where it might feel most unhealthy.

It is hard. What people need to remember, too, is that this concept of grace is like trying on a couple of things for size. You do not know what is going to work in your relationship, and it is such a delicate balance. Try a couple of different boundaries to see what fits, and just make sure that the other person on the other side understands the intention of what you’re trying to do, because I have seen people also try to set up what you were just talking about, and it had the unintended consequence, or like an unintended outcome. Again, that authenticity is like, “I want to be friends with you. I love so many things about you. I struggle with this thing. Are you a willing participant in helping us, helping me figure this out so that we can protect what we love about each other so much?”

When we make it, we think, “Can we experiment with what works?” This really is a lot of what happens in couples’ work. It’s like we experiment with different ways to find things, and that way, there’s some forgiveness and some resilience when you get it wrong because these firmly entrenched patterns do not want to change overnight. They’re not easy to replace or shift.

Especially when you have society sitting there on the edges, reinforcing things that may be very unhealthy, it helps with self-awareness, self-attunement, and self-love. It’s that part of being willing to work, whether it’s two people or a friendship circle of 5 or 10 people, it’s being able to work on coming together and finding patterns. When you make a hiccup, and you find yourself one-upping the other person, being able to say, “I did it again,” going back to the piece of humor, laughing because we are imperfect.

We get it wrong sometimes, that’s okay. It’s how that from that? Do we say, “Sorry, had a hiccup there, let’s get back on board. Did I hurt your feelings by doing that, that thing? If so, I’m very sorry.” By healing those little ruptures immediately, quickly, with grace, with a bit of humor if humor is appropriate, then that’s how we change. That’s how we change. Those tiny, bitty little imperfect moments right there. One of the biggest things we can do is not only be more authentic but also to create authenticity in our relationships.

I love that. That was so beautiful.

Erin, you have done such a marvelous job of working with this. It seems, on the face of it, a small issue, but it really has big, big roots. Do you have any other pieces that you would like to offer our audiences?

Just to sum it all up is just having grace and remembering that you do not know what you do not know. The best thing you can do, whether you’re striving for a perfect life or an imperfect life, is just show up curious. Ask questions and give people the benefit of the doubt, and it usually goes okay.

I love that you said that earlier. I forgot to comment on it where you said, “You know, ask why.” You came back to curiosity. That is one of our biggest tools and one that we often forget. By being curious and saying, “Why do you?” or, “What do you notice?” or, “Tell me more about this.” When we become curious rather than defensive, there’s so much there waiting to be explored, nurtured, and loved. My goodness, Erin, I could keep talking because you have so much information and wisdom to offer us. Where can our audiences find you?

Many places. My current company is called Pash Company, and it is named after my last name conveniently, but it stands for People Advancing Social Health. I took a shift from working with people on their individual and microsystem mental health, and I decided that I would love to create products and companies that can help people connect more in their environment and with each other.

You can find me at PASHCompany.com. You can find us on the internet. People Advancing Social Health. My personal Instagram is Erin Kelly Pash, and that’s where I share my fun outfits and some things that are coming up. I am also very excited about my latest book, which is Everybody Sucks Sometimes: Coping with the Hard Stuff and Embracing Your Perfectly Messy Life, which is exactly what we talked about with some of those good nuggets, tools, and tips of how people can really break down how to navigate some of those hard situations that people deal with on a daily basis.

I love the book title, and it works perfectly with this topic. Thank you. Everyone, please do not worry if you’re driving or if you do not have a pen handy. All of Erin’s links where you can find her book, you can find her company, her work, her Instagram, with a click, you’ll be able to access Erin and all of her fabulous work. Thank you so much, Erin, for your time, your wisdom, and your energy today. It’s been such a pleasure.

I agree. Thank you so much. I could also talk to you for hours. I cannot wait to listen to our episode.

I know it’s going to help so many people. Always to our audiences, thank you so much for joining us. I truly appreciate your investment, your time, and your energy. It is always a joy and privilege to be with you, and this is Imperfect Love.

Important Links

• Erin Pash
• Erin Kelly Pash on Instagram
• Erin Pash on LinkedIn
• PASH Company
• PASH Company on Instagram
• Ellie Mental Health
• Everybody Sucks Sometimes: Coping with the Hard Stuff and Embracing Your Perfectly Messy Life
• The Joy of Imperfect Love
• Dr. Carla Manly’s Website
• Dr. Carla Manly on Instagram
• Dr. Carla Manly on X
• Dr. Carla Manly on Facebook
• Dr. Carla Manly on LinkedIn
• Dr. Carla Manly on YouTube
• Dr. Carla Manly on TikTok
• NAMI HelpLine
• Mental Health and Relationships

About Erin Pash

Erin Pash, MA LMFT is a visionary entrepreneur, mental health disruptor, and the founder behind Ellie Mental Health — which she grew from a single Minnesota clinic to 265+ locations (with 400 more on the way) over the course of a decade as CEO. Now serving as Chairwoman of the Board, Erin channels her energy into public speaking, writing, consulting, and leading the social health movement through PASH Company — a portfolio of brands built to start conversations that matter.

A licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, Clinical Supervisor, and Clinical Fellow with both the Minnesota and American Associations of MFT, Erin is recognized as an expert in relationships, anxiety, complex family systems, business scaling, and franchising. When she’s not changing the world, she’s wrangling six kids, an undisclosed number of cats, and her next big idea.