We often expect love and relationships to be easy–and perfect–but the best of relationships are much like a bountiful garden that needs regular doses of tender loving care. And, like the weeds that can strangle and overtake a healthy garden, issues such as blame, resentment, and chronic conflict can ruin even the most promising relationship. Over time, I’ve come to see that imperfections are a natural part of all relationships, and that it’s how we handle the imperfections and stumbles that make all the difference. Today, I’m joined by an Emmy-award winning couple, Sean Kanan and Michele Kanan, who offer a guiding light through their new relationship books and deeply love-filled paradigm. With the mantra, “Two hearts. One soul,” as their foundation, Sean and Michele bring an abundance of honesty, depth, wisdom, and vulnerability to this compelling episode.

Topics discussed include betrayal, love, relationships, marriage, infidelity, affairs, extramarital affairs, adultery, dating, honesty, genuineness, self-development, self-awareness, rules, agreements, attachment theory, secure attachment, anxious attachment, insecure attachment, film, television, conflict, fighting, communication, trust, safety, security, healing, convenienceship, origin story, growth, curiosity, priorities, work, career, film, movies, Emmy® awards, Cobra Kai, Karate Kid, family, success, children, blended family, blended families, divorce, resentment, blame, shame, worthiness, self-love, inner strength, becoming, unbecoming, healing, authentic self, and forgiveness.

Please note that this episode may contain sensitive material; listener discretion is advised.

Emergency Assistance Note: If you or someone you know needs immediate support, please call your emergency services. In the US, 24/7 help is available by calling “911” or “988” (Suicide and Crisis Hotline). Support/informational links are in the show notes.

Books by Dr. Carla Manly:

Joy From Fear: Create the Life of Your Dreams by Making Fear Your Friend

Date Smart: Transform Your Relationships and Love Fearlessly

Aging Joyfully: A Woman’s Guide to Optimal Health, Relationships, and Fulfillment for Her 50s and Beyond

The Joy of Imperfect Love: The Art of Creating Healthy, Securely Attached Relationships

Oracle decks by Dr. Carla Manly:

Etsy

Amazon

Connect with Dr. Carla Manly:

Website: https://www.drcarlamanly.com

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/drcarlamanly/

Twitter/X: https://www.twitter.com/drcarlamanly/

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/drcarlamanly

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/carla-marie-manly-8682362b/

YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@dr_carlamanly_imperfect_love

TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@dr_carla_manly

Books by Sean and Michele Kanan:

Way of the COBRA Couples

Way of the COBRA: Unleash Your Inner Badass

Welcome to the Kumite: Way of the COBRA

Connect with Sean and Michele Kanan:

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/sean.kanan/

Twitter/X: https://x.com/seankanan

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Watch the episode here

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Moving Beyond Betrayal, Blame, and Pain with Emmy®-Award Winning Couple Sean and Michele Kanan

The Art of Forging Genuine Self-Love and Healthy Relationships

We often expect love and relationships to be easy and perfect, but the best of relationships are much like a bountiful garden that needs regular doses of tender loving care. As with the weeds that can strangle and overtake even the healthiest garden, issues such as blame, resentment, and chronic conflict can ruin even the most promising relationship. Over time, I’ve come to see that imperfections are a natural part of every relationship and that it’s how we handle the imperfections and stumbles that make all the difference.

I’m joined by an Emmy award-winning couple, Sean and Michele Kanan, who offer a guiding light through their new relationship books and deeply loved-filled paradigm. In this episode, we’ll focus on this real-life question. “I found out that my husband has been cheating on me. He wants me to forgive him. I can’t, at least not now. His betrayal has cut me to the core. I don’t trust him. I’m constantly angry and make him sleep in the spare bedroom. Can this be fixed or should I just end the marriage and move on?” That question is the focus of this episode.

I’m joined by two very special guests, Sean and Michele Kanan, who will be sharing their expertise on film, acting, authorship, and being a passion-filled loving couple. Welcome to the show, Sean and Michele.

Thank you very much. It’s a pleasure to be here.

Journey to Partnership: Michelle and Sean’s Paths to Each Other

It’s so wonderful to have both of you. Before we launch into this very juicy, sad topic, could you tell our readers just a little bit individually about what makes you, you?

I’m mutually the sidekick to karate’s bad boy. I was a PTA mom and I was living in the suburbs with my four kids. I had a similar circumstance to your writer and I ended up finding myself, very quickly, in a new marriage with this one.

I think we should clarify that you weren’t the one cheating. I think that’s important.

Yes, that is true.

That’s an important piece.

I didn’t want to like just throw it all out there, but yeah, sure. I found myself in a relationship with this one and I said, “This is all going great, but do you remember I have four kids?” He said yes. I thought, “Either this is going to be an epic relationship and romance, or he’s a serial killer and he’ll kill us all.”

The jury’s still out.

Yeah, jury is still out, but it’s been many years. The kids are all grown now. I guess that makes us an expert on blended families and this type of relationship scenario. When we wrote our book, it was really a to-do book or a how to guide to have our relationship because so many people ask us how do we weather all the storms from Hollywood?

Beautiful background. Michele, I’m sorry about the betrayal. I didn’t know that when I was matching the question with you two, so I’m sorry about that. It sounds like you really came out the other side in a really positive way. Thank you for sharing that. Sean, your turn.

I think most people know me as an actor. I think for a long time, that’s how I define myself. Now, while acting, producing and writing are all things that I’m passionate about and love, I truly define myself as being the other part of the partnership that I have with Michele. As much as I love everything else that I do, if that were to all go belly up, I’d still be okay because the central focus of my life is my relationship with Michele. Wherever that takes me, that’s where home is.

You gave me chills because I very much am the same way as you two, our relationship. I often say love is where we start from. Love is home. Many people put their relationship second, third, fourth, fifth, 100th on their list of priorities. For me, relationship is number one. I think in our culture, Sean, that many people, at least from what I found, particularly males, would think that that’s a weakness. We should prioritize money, fame, fortune, and that the relationship falls where it does. I’m so thrilled that you said that and grateful.

My career has only blossomed since coming together with Michele. I’m a very career-driven person, make no mistake about it, and so is Michele. We’re very competitive, but we drive each other. We both realize that the central core of what makes both of us successful in all of the other things that we do emanates from our relationship.

I saw something really interesting. There’s this really cool Chinese monk who I think people might have seen before on TED Talks. I forget what his name is, but he said, “In life, you have thousands of problems, but when you don’t have your health, you only have one problem.” It’s true. For me, aside from my health, if I had a problem in my relationship, that would very quickly become the biggest single greatest problem I have and everything else would pale in comparison.

We even told the kids, we said, “Don’t take this the wrong way, but our relationship comes first.” While that might sound selfish, ostensibly, the reality is it’s like put your oxygen mask on first. The only way that we can be the best parents that we can be and to protect them, help them, guide them and all of that other stuff is if this works. If this doesn’t work, then nothing else is going to function properly. Once we came to understand that and they understand that, things became simpler.

Yeah, very clear.

I agree with you too. Much. I remember early on when I was getting my Master’s, the training was that healthy parenting looked like the capital letter A. It was the mom and the dad connected at the top and then you have the connection between you two and then the kids can be the rest of the alphabet. You need healthy parenting, that healthy A, otherwise, the kids can split you. The kids get the inconsistency that they don’t need that when mom and dad are connected and strong and that is with life.

It creates a template for them. My parents have been married at 50-some years, whatever. My basic template for a happy relationship has always been my parents’ commitment to each other. I was raised wanting that and seeing that as what the goal was. I understand that not everybody was fortunate enough to have that and they’ve had to figure that out other ways. If you’re blessed enough to have parents that have had a longitudinally happy relationship, at least aspirationally, it puts you on the right track to having a secure, happy, monogamous relationship.

You just said one of my favorite words, secure. It sounds very much even before you said that, I was thinking, he must have a very secure attachment style.

I’m glad that you said that. Our kids now are all in their twenties and they’re all dating. I love to sit and talk with them about what’s going on in their relationship and what the dating world is like out there. The way they talk to me is different than the way they talk amongst each other. I was listening to the three girls sit and talk out of earshot, and they were saying, “Yeah, this guy, I think it’ll work out. He has a very secure attachment style.” I was thinking, “The kids are discussing this. We never discussed that.”

I’ll be really honest, I did a deep dive into attachment styles for our book and Michele and I went back and forth. Michele thought I was too wonky and in the weeds.

That wasn’t what it was. It was very textbook. I said it’s kind of dry and our style is more conversational, so you need to lighten it up and not be a textbook.

We did, but it is important. It really is important. If you’re meeting somebody and after a brief period, you ascertain from the origin story they give you and how they talk about their parents and things like that, they’ve got attachment issues, it doesn’t mean that the relationship can’t work out, but it means that there are going to be some very specific potential pitfalls and challenges that you as a partner have to be very aware of.

Also, I think that there’s a whole schedule that has to happen. My daughter went to UCLA and she had a dual major in Psychology and Neuroscience and a minor in Italian. She graduated in four years at the top of her class. I was so impressed with her because she was going to be a neurosurgeon. She took a gap year and worked at a bakery. I was like, “Okay. Sure.”

She was frosting cakes and it was really great and fun for her and she really enjoyed it. However, she kept complaining about things because she lived in an expensive neighborhood and she did all these things. I said, “Darling, if you want to be a baker and frost cakes, you need to go live with the other bakers. You can’t live in the neurosurgeon neighborhood because there’s a discrepancy in finance.”

There’s nothing wrong with it. You can’t choose to live like a neurosurgeon, but make the money of a baker unless somehow you do that. When you have a relationship and you have somebody that has an anxious attachment style, there is a set of things that go along with it and a schedule to progress. I think every relationship is a spectrum.

If you’re going to move down the spectrum and move forward, there are certain things that have to happen in order to progress you down that path. You can’t take somebody who’s on a path of anxious attachment and put them on a secure one and say, “Now you’re this one.” You have to go through the motions and the steps. We call this your origin story. That’s a chapter in our book is about develop your origin story.

It is really connect with who you are as a person. If you’re an anxious attachment, understand that about yourself and present that. Don’t present as if you say you want to be a domesticated cat and have kittens with your partner and live this cushy lifestyle in the, in this happy home, but you’re a tiger, your mate is going to see, is going to expect you to use a litter box. If you’re a tiger going to Vegas on the weekend with your buddies and that’s your happy place, then don’t present that you want to be domesticated because it’s just going to be unhappy. Just put out there exactly what you want.

Authenticity in Relationships: Knowing Yourself and Avoiding Shame

I’m so grateful that you paused on this and you’re using some beautiful metaphors and analogies that when we look at going out into the world, it’s so important to know, and this is what I’m hearing you say, know yourself. Take the time to know who you are. Know your attachment style. If you’re not into attachment, my whole fourth book, The Joy of Perfect Love, all about attachment style. We’re not all about it, but it has that same foundation as yours does.

It doesn’t even matter the paradigm. What matters is that you are saying know yourself, be congruent with yourself. You want to be a neurosurgeon, great. That’s your life. You want to be a baker, great. Make your life congruent with that. You want to be a kitty cat in a relationship, great. If you’re really inside a parrot or little baby bulldog, then you have to know that so you are being congruent and genuine.

A lot of my acting students say, “What should we do as a new actor?” I say, “Before you slip on the skin of another character, you need to know who you are.” The biggest thing that you can bring to the table that nobody else has is your authenticity and developing your self-awareness. As my self-awareness has developed significantly over, I would say over the last decade, I’ve become an infinitely better actor. That’s acting.

Imagine you’re trying to meet your partner or be more authentic in your existing relationships, whether they’re romantic, business, friends, whatever. One of the biggest assets that you can cultivate is getting to know yourself. Authenticity is an extremely formidable and powerful force multiplier. Not to digress too much, but I do public speaking and sometimes I address people that are salespeople.

I say, “I bet you’re wondering what do I have in common with a guy who’s an actor? At the end of the day, I’m in sales and my first round of sales is to producers and casting directors. My second round of sales is to the audience watching me.” One of the biggest tools that you can have as a salesperson is authenticity because assuming your product is pretty much as good as the next guys, they’re buying you. If they’re buying you, authenticity is often the determining factor between whether someone you know buys into you or not.

The plus one to that is that once you determine who you are, you have to avoid the trap and the pitfall of being malleable to being somebody else because you think that’s what they want. There’s a bit of shame in there like, “Maybe what I am is not good enough, so I better change myself to what they want to be lovable.”

We have another chapter in the book called Shame Does Not Exist in This Dojo because shaming is blaming and it puts somebody into a very defensive position. You already start a discussion in conflict negative place and in a negative place. People tend to not be as authentic when they’re on the defensive because they put up armor and walls and like anything that they need to do to deflect from that pain of shame.

The best part is to just acknowledge things without finding blame. Nine times out of ten, things don’t really have a central focus of whose fault it is. It just generally the coordination. When I first met Sean, he had a really strong attachment to auditions where he would have an audition, he’d get very upset after the audition if he didn’t get the part because he felt very judged. I had to keep reminding him that an audition is not about judging you as a person, it’s about judging your fit for the park.

Maybe you just weren’t right for it. Maybe they just had somebody else, they had a brunette in mind, or maybe they had a girl in mind and they were just trying a guy. You just don’t know. It’s not about you as an actor. They called you in. That’s the judgment of you. They’re assuming you’re talented, they’re assuming you’re a good actor, they’re assuming you’re a good fit, just in the moment your goodness didn’t fit with what they were looking for.

Sean Kanan’s Career: Strength, Authenticity, and Wisdom

Absolutely. That is a key piece. Clearly when you two met, you found that you were a good fit and you’ve really worked it. Now let me pause because you’ve said so many good things. Sean, I want to go to you for just a minute. You are known for, I believe, Karate Kid 3. Tell us a little bit more about that work and how you use that work, that authentic in your body work, which is something that I find really fascinating and that genuineness to forge this relationship with Michele, this relationship that is so strong and grounded. Maybe then we can pivot from there to what might have gone amiss in our audience member’s question. Let’s spotlight you just for a second, Sean, because I’m really getting Michele’s energy.

Can you drill down that question a little more because I’m trying to make the leap from Karate Kid 3 to my relationship and I’m having trouble crossing the chasm. Could you just rephrase the question a little bit?

Absolutely. Readers, Sean is very strong, very centered. He’s telling us how grounded he is as a character TV and film. You’re also very strong character. As we’re talking about genuineness and authenticity, I’m a huge believer in the Carla you see now is the Carla you’re going to see outside or wherever I am with my clients. I’m sensing that that is very much who both of you are. What you see is what you get.

What you see is what you get. We’re very much like that. As I said, I think authenticity is one of the most powerful sexy qualities you can have. Now, your authenticity might not be everybody’s cup of tea. That’s a lesson that people need to learn. It’s like the Dom Miguel Ruiz book The Four Agreements. Take nothing personally. Michele gave you a little insight into how I used to look at auditions and things and it took me a long time to get there.

Now that I have gotten there, not only is my acting work better because I don’t attach to things the way that I did, and if you want to get really deep into it, all of the stuff by the Buddha talks about how attachment is the source of all suffering. I know I’m digressing a little bit there, but as far as playing characters that are strong and things like that, I think in the beginning of my career, I had a very different idea of what strength was.

Strength was force of personality, it was charisma, it was externalizing. As I’ve become, hopefully, a more evolved self-aware man and actor, you learn, it’s like the old adage, I think George Clooney said this. He said, “A movie star knows, doesn’t show.” In other words, you’re up on a 30-foot screen and if you are being overly emotionally demonstrative and big, you’re giving away too much. If it’s coming from an internal place of strength and knowledge of your strength where you don’t have to be overtly demonstrative with it, that’s true strength.

I hope that as I’ve gotten older and life has knocked me around a little bit, which is probably the best way to gain some wisdom. People ask me all the time, “What would you say to your younger self?” I would say, “You are enough.” As a younger guy, I always felt the need, whether it was with women or whether it was walking into a room for an audition or anything to show people who I was. When you do that, you’re already giving it away in a way that shows that you don’t really have it.

Empathy and Perspective: Keys to Understanding

You answered the question perfectly to this inner sense of core, “I am a good evolving human being.” When we bring that to relationships, whether we’re dating whatever’s happening in our lives where we’re already married or in a long-term partnership, when we bring that or stability, “I don’t have anything to prove. I’m learning, I’m evolving. Here I am,” it’s so vulnerable and rich and beautiful and strong, not perfect.

Everyone’s life is messy. We say that in the book. Maybe they’re reading this right now going, “Look at this couple, they look great and they’re on TV and everything must be perfect,” we have our BS too like everybody does. Everyone’s life is messy. What that really takes me to, I forget who said it, I know Robin Williams did. You never know what private wars somebody is fighting. Luckily, Michele and I don’t have many prior wars but we have, and that’s why I think empathy is one of the absolute most important qualities that we can cultivate as human beings and that we can transmit and teach to our children. Empathy and justice are the two last best hopes for our civilization. Yeah,

I heard something really profound, but it was in my late teens, early twenties. It was the notion that people have a hard time looking past their own notes. At the time, in your development, you’re very egocentric because that’s what teens are all about. At 25, you start coming out of it. At the time it really was like a light bulb for me. It was an exercise to think outside of myself.

Something would happen instead of reacting in the moment, I would think, “Why did they do that? What did they possibly have to gain from this? What do they possibly have to lose from this? Why was it presented in this way or why now?” Why was a really big question for me. When I was able to do that, I started to see alternative perspectives. Instead of having an argument about things that are like, “I think this, my truth is this, I believe this and I’m asserting this,” I am able to have a conversation where I say, “I would like to know what your perspective is,” in earnest. I really would like to hear it. I find that it can almost be combative at times

There’s a flip side to it, which is perception. People operate from two places. What is their perspective based on their worldview and what is their perception of what they’re seeing that may not be accurate. If you realize that someone’s perception is off because they’re not seeing the reality, the reality of something, then you can understand that. If you understand that their perspective is off because they come from a completely different world than you do, of course they might look at something 180 degrees differently.

Navigating Relationships: Agreements and Betrayal

For those who are reading, I’m going to do a little experiment, I have a heart. What does the heart say?

Are there letters?

From my side, it says peace. When I flip it around and when I work with couples, I talk about perspective. At first, you weren’t seeing what I was seeing.

I was looking at the dark part.

I was like, “Maybe our screen’s bad.”

I turn it around and it’s such an important piece when we look. You’re bringing up so many key pieces, empathy, the importance of being able to be in someone else’s shoes to feel with them. Also, you said it Michele or you were alluding to it, I’ll give it the word, curiosity, being curious about somebody else’s perspective. There’s so much healing in that instead of the right, wrong.

You two talk about your relationship rule book as part of your work. I’d like to see if we can use that. Could you talk a little bit about how you would use your books in answering this woman’s very unfortunate question? She’s been betrayed. We’re not going to tell anybody what to do or how to do it. This is a very personal choice.

I got a few thoughts on that.

I like this. Okay, so you don’t have to follow our advice.

Let me jump in, just tell me what COBRA stands for and then you take it. She asked about her books.

No. She’s asked about the relationship rule book. What is it? You can then tell yours. The relationship rule book, it starts in the beginning of the relationship. It’s either a physical manifestation or you can just bat it around and it’s done during the activities of courting. When you go on a date, the date isn’t for you to see the latest movie or to see how you are at put putt golf. It is to have a backdrop to get to know somebody and to learn their origin story and meld your expectations together and to make a list of things that are, are acceptable and are off limits and how to define the relationship.

For example, in your audience member’s circumstance, infidelity. It’s a big one and it’s usually comes up in the beginning and a lot of people just assume that, “We don’t really have to talk about it because that’s just not an option for us.” You don’t really understand where people are on their spectrum of fidelity and why something like this happens. In your audience member’s circumstance, should she just forgive him? What was their agreement? It’s a very personal decision and it starts with doing a personal inventory.

Obviously she’s angry now, but going outside of herself to understand why he did it is going to be very key to whether or not she’s able to forgive him. If this was something that was like there were problems in the relationship and just holding some resentment against her and he did this to punish her, then that’s one scenario where this is retaliation. How do you feel about retaliation and what that do for you? If it’s something where it was just out of left field and it was some random impulse, now you have somebody that’s impulsive and does something super destructive and impulsively, do you want to live the rest of your relationship that way?

It’s all these things are what you’re willing to live with. The one thing that I would say in her situation is she has to decide first whether or not she’s willing to forgive him. If her answer is no, she needs to end the relationship because you cannot be in a relationship where you constantly torture somebody or you constantly blame somebody or you’re in a situation where it’s never going to be forgiven. If she decides that she might be able to then stick it out until she decides, “I can forgive or I cannot.” That is the only thing that I would say is the important thing in terms of forgiving or not.

The Fork in the Road: Forgiveness and Reconciliation

I’m going to pause here, then Sean, I’m going to lean into your thoughts. Michele, thank you for that. I want to highlight your idea of a relationship rule book. For readers who it might sound like, “Why do I need rules in my relationship?” Our verbiage is different, but it’s the same idea. I call them relationship agreements and we have agreements in relationships explicitly or implicitly.

The implicit ones are the ones that just come in by the wayside and we don’t really pay attention to them. They’re just what happens. What you are recommending is what I recommend. Be explicit as early on in the relationship as possible about your priorities, your standards. Is texting somebody with emojis who happens to be someone you like, is that okay in the relationship?

If you are in a committed relationship, is that no way? What’s your level of transparency? We’re not saying there’s a right or wrong, but we are saying there’s a way that’s going to feel right to both people. Make it concrete, make it palpable. Make it real. Okay, thank you. I also really appreciate the piece about forgiveness because forgiveness, like resentment, is really, in the long run, toxic for everyone.

If we aren’t able to forgive, forgiving doesn’t mean we’re giving someone the permission to keep hurting us. It means that amends have been made and there’s an agreement to move forward, whatever that looks like. That neither has that yoke of either resentment or not forgiving. We have that foundation. Sean, what would you like to add?

I think Michele and I concur on this. Ultimately comes down to what a person can tolerate within themselves. If you know as the person who was betrayed that you aren’t going to be able to live with this and like Michele, you are extending the relationship as a way of punishing your partner, then you need to get out. I think you also have to understand, and this is predicated on the partner, that betrayed truly wanting to make amends and change, that the relationship is fundamentally changed and will never be the same.

There can be a new relationship. I would hesitate to say it’s going to be a better one. There will need to be a new relationship with a new understanding. Once trust is broken, it’s broken. Can it be repaired? I think it can be made better. One of the things I love about my relationship with Michele is we’re like everybody else. Do we bicker sometimes? Do we fight? Sure, whatever. When push comes to shove, I trust her implicitly and she trusts me implicitly.

There is something so unbelievably reassuring about that. This is going to be stupid, but it’s almost like when you need a couch and you get that couch and you’re like, “Great. I got that done. I don’t ever have to worry about getting a couch again. I love this couch.” It’s like I don’t have to worry about that. Do we have other stuff we deal with? Sure. If I had to, in the back of my head, or not even so much in the back of my head, also contend with the fact that I don’t trust her 100% that would take up a lot of space rent-free in my brain. I believe in things that are very holistic and I think if one thing isn’t working, you can compartmentalize, but very few people are able to compartmentalize so effectively that there isn’t bleed over into other areas of your life.

You said it so brilliantly individually and as a team. I really want to highlight Sean, what you are saying about trust because if you have the type of trust that you are talking about where you feel that your partner, it’s just a given, there are no questions about the fidelity, the trust in the relationship. It goes back to the beginning of the episode we were talking about. Home is where we start from. Love is where we start from.

If we leave home knowing we come back home knowing we trust home, the person in it, our key partner, everything else in life feels so much better because even if we have a bad day or a terrible day, we come back and we know we have that trust. I always think about it coming from Maslow’s hierarchy of needs where when you look at that and the bottom is security.

When we have safety and security in a relationship, everything else can go up from there. You’re right, we can have troubles, we can bicker a little bit here and there, but we know in the end that this is unbreakable, unshakeable and that’s brilliant. The other piece, Sean, when you’re talking about forgiving the partner, I also agree hugely on the amends. It’s different if you have a partner who betrays you and comes back and says, “It just happened and you’re going to have to get over it.”

That’s someone who’s a narcissist. You can’t deal with a narcissist.

No, you can’t. An entirely different thing if you have somebody coming and taking responsibility and saying, “I am so sorry. This is what happened. This is why I did. I’m not excusing it, I’m explaining it. I’m taking these steps. I’m going to therapy, I’m doing these different things. Let’s do some couples counseling. Let’s move through this and create safety and security,” because you’re both right.

It comes back to the other partner knowing who they are. I know myself and I know that as evolved as I like to think that I am, there is a part of me that I couldn’t forgive that. That’s me. I know that about me. I don’t even talk about our relationship because hypothetically, I would rather leave a relationship than continue to grind in silence and probably punish the other person because I just don’t think I could forgive it. Some people could.

I think that there’s seeing how relationships are evolving. I think that there’s now, with all the trauma that’s in the world after COVID and after the world feeling like it’s on fire, when you find comfort and safety and security in being with somebody, it’s not as easy to put a black mark and saying, “Okay, I’m going to throw all of that away just because of this one thing.”

I think especially women can be a lot more empathetic and willing to ride the negative and overlook certain flaws to have that sense of safety and security because I think there’s a part of people that feel unlovable. Once you have this failed relationship, I think that that’s the hesitation of hanging on. You start to get into this negative pattern of like, “I’m going to pile all this stuff on top of me because yeah, they did that.”

I think if I were ever to be unfaithful, it would crush me because I couldn’t be the guy that I am with Michele now knowing that I betrayed not only her but my character. I can be the guy that I am because I know I walk it like I talk it.

The Purgatory of Indecision: Finding Clarity After Betrayal

It sounds like your question is someone who, right from the jump, didn’t kick him out. She didn’t say, “Okay, you violated our relationship. You’ve crossed a boundary that I’ve set and I need you to leave.” Instead, it’s this like half measure where they’re in another room, but I can still have access. They’re asking for forgiveness and I’m thinking about it.

I think also, probably for a lot of people, it’s a confusing period of time. Sure. You don’t necessarily have a monolithic answer. I’m actually a little more empathetic to that purgatory of not being monolithically clear immediately. I think you need to make a decision and get clear quickly and move towards one or the other and commit. It’s the vacillating that causes the pain.

Once you pull the Band-Aid off and decide, “Either I’m getting divorced and starting a new life,” which is painful, I’ve done that or you say, “We are going to go down the road to recovery and healing ourselves and building this new relationship.” At least you know where you’re going. Humans hate the unknown. The unknown causes anxiety. Once you know what you’re doing, you can live in the present and you can work forward.

I agree completely. I also love for Sean that you were talking about this purgatory, because I work with couples where there’s been betrayal and it is a purgatory. Michele, I love that you brought up the very real truth that in a relationship, I sometimes call them convenience ships, where there isn’t a connection of true love any longer. Maybe there never was, but two people have come together and it’s convenient. Their financial needs are met.

To detangle things feels so scary. Going back to your image earlier about living like a neurosurgeon, but having a salary of a baker. For many people, it is the truth that they’re moving from a lifestyle of a neurosurgeon to a lifestyle of a bakery clerk or a cashier in a store. For some people, they would rather stay and live in the neurosurgeon type of life than split and go down. I’m not judging that, but going back to what you’re are saying, you need to look inside yourself.

Be honest with yourself. If you want to stay in something that’s convenient and that’s part of it, that’s your right. Do the work so that you’re not carrying around this noose of resentment because resentment is so toxic and blame and all of that is toxic to the self and the entire relationship. Both had so many wonderful things to say and so many beautiful concepts that sound as if they’re not just going to be helpful for established couples. For couples who are new to dating or out in the dating world, as we wind down, are there a few other key concepts you’d like to highlight for our readers?

Beyond Convenience: The Search for Emotional Fulfillment

I think the other thing is that aside from the comfort and the convenience and things becoming an arrangement, I think that that’s a bigger purgatory because when you do that, you assign yourself the label unlovable. I can only say in our relationship, we’ve had ups and downs and we’ve had things, but Sean has always been the emotional piece to me that I was missing in my first relationship. When you’re young, it’s like you seem like you’re in love. We got married, we had kids and things just went on this race. We call it cruise control, and you lose the passion, but as things move along, you can always tap back into that.

In my first relationship, I couldn’t. I didn’t have that. It was, again, maybe a convenience. In this relationship, no matter what, I can always tap back into that passion because we are so emotionally connected. People think that it’s easier to be in a convenient relationship or a convenient space, you lose a part of yourself. I would just say and caution people, when you are in a impasse, in a relationship, you need to do this experiment. You need to go away for two days, like get a hotel. Leave your space and everything. Just go somewhere else. Stay there for two days with no contact, no checking in, no nothing. Just sit by yourself. If you are wondering and most of your time is spent wondering what’s going on at home, you’re going to start to yearn and miss it.

That will really ignite that. If you don’t, if you’re like, “This was a huge break and I feel so comfortable and I’m just getting so much done and I just should have done this years ago,” it’s not there and it never was. You have to get out of your familiar surroundings to find out really where you are because you take on a lot of your situation and your environment. I think that’ll be really helpful to be able to think. For me, I was in a twenty-year relationship and the next day, I was in this one. I was terrified. I thought I was never going to be able to do anything again or be with someone. Now I have such a fulfilling relationship that like all the little things that we fight about seem so silly.

I have a question, Michele, just to clarify for our readers, it wasn’t really just the next day was it?

It was the next day. It was literally later that afternoon. It’s all in the book, by the way. I went to see my friend and I was like, “I can’t believe it. I finally did it.” She’s like, “I’m busy right now.” The rest is in the book.

Read the book. That’s proof, isn’t it? When you have the courage, when you look at your life and you’re honest and you say, “Is my life better with this person or without this person? Am I being true to myself if I stay?” We have to go back to the self. Once we make that decision and are all in, whether it’s staying or going, the universe has a way of supporting us. Sean, final words from you.

Sharing Their Wisdom: The Kanans’ Books and Sean’s TEDx Talk

When you have a book, you want to promote it because you want people to buy it and we’re no different. I really believe with every cell in my being that the information, not only in our book Way of the COBRA Couples, but in the first two books, Way of the COBRA and Welcome to the Kumite, have the ability to change people’s lives because the information is brilliant. I can say that without sounding arrogant, because it’s not our information, it’s all of our information. It’s the universe’s information. We’re just the messengers bringing it to you.

It’s probably things that on some level you’ve heard before, but I always equate it to being like a 15 or 16-year-old boy who’s at that contentious age with his father. No matter how good the advice is, he can’t hear it. It’s like the Mark Twain quote. I was eighteen years old. I couldn’t believe what an idiot my father was. By the time I was 21, I couldn’t believe how much he’d learned. It’s that sort of thing. I say the information in the books is brilliant because it is, and you either know it intuitively or maybe you’ve forgotten it, but we’re going to help you tap back into it. If you apply it and put it into action, your life will change. If it doesn’t, you call me and I’ll give your money back. How’s that?

Sounds amazing. Alright, now where can our readers find you and your books?

You get them on Amazon. It’s Way of the COBRA, Welcome to the Kumite and Way of the COBRA Couples. Way of the COBRA is on Audible. I’d also like to give a gratuitous plug to my tedx speech, which was just selected as the editor’s choice by TED.com. I talk a lot about stuff that Michele and I talk about from the other books, and it’s about the art of unbecoming, that maybe life is less about becoming someone and more about unbecoming who we’ve been told to become.

That tedx, it’s out, correct?

It is out. Please check it out.

Thank you so much for bringing your joy, your authenticity, and your work to all of us and for your time. It’s been such a pleasure.

This was such a pleasure sitting down with you. Thank you so much, all your readers. We really appreciate it. Go out and live life and be happy.

Yes, and be authentic. To our readers, my thanks to you for reading, for sharing your time and energy with us, and this is Imperfect Love. 

Important Links

• Sean and Michele Kanan
• Way of the COBRA Books
• Way of the COBRA Website
• Way of the COBRA on Facebook
• How to be the hero of your own story | Sean Kanan | TEDx Southlake
• Way of the COBRA Couples on Amazon
• Way of the COBRA on Amazon
• Welcome to the Kumite on Amazon
• Sean Kanan on X
• Sean Kanan on Instagram
• NAMI Helplines
• Dr. Carla Manly’s Website
• Dr. Carla Manly on
• Instagram
• Dr. Carla Manly on Twitter
• Dr. Carla Manly on Facebook
• Dr. Carla Manly on LinkedIn
•  Dr. Carla Manly on
• YouTube
• Dr. Carla Manly on TikTok

About Sean and Michele Kanan

Sean and Michele Kanan are a powerhouse couple in the entertainment industry, known for their dynamic talents both in front of and behind the camera.

Sean Kanan is internationally recognized for his iconic roles, including Karate’s Bad-Boy “Mike Barnes” in seasons five and six of Cobra Kai—originating from The Karate Kid III—and the devilishly sexy rogue ‘Deacon Sharpe’ on CBS’s The Bold and the Beautiful, the most-watched daytime drama in the world. As 2025 marks Kanan’s 25th anniversary since first joining The Bold and the Beautiful, he continues to captivate audiences with his enduring and dynamic performance. He has also reprised this character on its sister show, The Young and the Restless, and boasts a distinguished portfolio including a notable stint as ‘AJ Quartermaine’ on ABC’s General Hospital. Kanan’s dozens of film credits are diverse, featuring collaborations with numerous stars including Bruce Willis in 2021 on Survive the Game and The Fortress.

In 2021, Kanan won the Daytime Emmy® for Outstanding Limited Series as the Executive Producer and Creator of Studio City on Amazon Prime. He received nominations for Outstanding Lead Actor and Outstanding Writing Team for the same series and won the Indie Series Award for Outstanding Lead Actor for his portrayal of protagonist ‘Sam Stephens.’

Following his success with Studio City, Kanan is now making waves as the co-showrunner for the highly anticipated streaming series “Unsuited,” currently in production and set to launch in 2025. In this multifaceted role, he also serves as co-head writer, executive producer, and actor, collaborating with a talented team while filming across both the East and West Coasts to bring this innovative project to life.

Kanan continues to captivate audiences with his performance as ‘Deacon Sharpe’ on CBS’s world-renowned daytime drama, and he has reprised this character on its sister show, The Young and the Restless. His distinguished portfolio also includes a notable stint as ‘AJ Quartermaine’ on ABC’s General Hospital. His recent film credits are diverse, including two films with Bruce Willis in 2021, Survive the Game and The Fortress, alongside Lifetime’s Sinister Society.

An accomplished author, Kanan has published five books, including The Modern Gentleman: Cooking and Entertaining with Sean Kanan, and the bestselling Success Factor X. His literary works focus on personal development and relationships, exemplified by his latest collaboration with his wife, Way of the COBRA Couples marking the third installment of the award winning Way of the COBRA series.

Kanan is deeply committed to giving back, lobbying on Capitol Hill to raise awareness about bullying and entertaining troops with the USO in Bosnia. He actively supports numerous charitable organizations, including The American Cancer Society and various animal advocacy groups, while serving as the international youth ambassador for Boo2Bullying.

In recognition of his contributions to the arts and charity work, Kanan received the 400th star on the Palm Springs Walk of Fame in 2016. He currently resides in Los Angeles and Palm Springs with his wife, Michele, who is also a writer and Emmy® award-winning producer.

Stay connected with Sean on Instagram: @sean.kanan and X: @seankanan.

On the other side, Emmy® winning producer and co-writer of Way of the Cobra Couples, Michele Kanan was living in the suburbs, carpooling and serving as administrator for a successful medical practice when she decided to step out of her comfort zone to make a movie. Fast forward, and Kanan found herself and her kids married to the ‘Bad Boy of Karate’ Sean Kanan, while beginning a Hollywood career as a producer, writer and director.

She has produced ten films including ’Til Death Do Us Part with Jason Patric, Orlando Jones and Cam Gigandet; Darkness of Man with Jean Claude VanDam; and a Cannes Film Festival sci-fi favorite, Colonials with Greg Kriek.

In 2021, Kanan was nominated for an Emmy® for writing and she won an Emmy® as producer for Outstanding Digital Drama for Studio City (Amazon Prime, ROKU). Studio City has received over 20 Emmy® nominations and garnered Kanan a 2019 Indie Series Award for Best Writing. In 2022, she won the Indie Series Award for writing and Studio City won for Best Ensemble Cast.

Currently Kanan is in post-production on the young adult television show, Pretty Little Gun and is set to direct the feature films, A Gift of Magic and Snipers. She has four projects in development, including one with Eric Roberts and another with Orlando Jones. In addition, Kanan is launching a web3 interactive game and token in conjunction with her show Pretty Little Gun, while running a flourishing e-commerce/digital marketing boutique agency.

In 2022, she received a star on Palm Springs prestigious Walk of Fame in recognition for her work in entertainment and philanthropy in the Coachella Valley and Hollywood. In her spare time, Kanan spoils Beatrix, her Pug and she adores spending time with her five grown children and international television star husband.