Every daughter wants a loving, close relationship with her mom. Yet, in real life, sometimes the mother-daughter relationship is fabulous, sometimes it’s so-so, and sometimes it is downright horrible. And in cases where a mother engages in controlling, narcissistic, or other abusive behaviors, the cost to the daughter can be exceedingly high. The road to recovery–to discovering or reclaiming your voice and self-determination–can be long and challenging. But the good news is that you can take steady steps forward to heal your heart, soul, and life. Join Dr. Carla and psychotherapist Katherine Fabrizio for a compelling journey into the realm of narcissism, borderline personality disorder, difficult mothers, and how you can heal yourself and (possibly) the mother-daughter relationship.
Topics discussed include relationship dynamics, attachment, narcissism, narcissistic supply, motherhood, daughters, psychological resilience, criticism, approval, borderline personality disorder, BPD, narcissistic personality disorder, defenses, superiority, defense mechanisms, appropriated daughter, abandonment, autonomy, intrusive, culture, patriarchy, mother-daughter relationship, personality traits, diagnosis, intergenerational wounding, intergenerational transmission of violence, agreements, contracts, self-work, personal evolution, and healing.
Please note that this episode contains sensitive material; listener discretion is advised.
Emergency Assistance Note: If you or someone you know needs immediate support, please call your emergency services. In the US, 24/7 help is available by calling “911,” “988” (Suicide and Crisis Hotline), or SAMSA (Substance Abuse and Mental Health Services Administration) at 1-800-662-HELP (4357). Support/informational links are in the show notes.
Connect with Dr. Carla Manly:
Website: https://www.drcarlamanly.com
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/drcarlamanly/
Twitter: https://www.twitter.com/drcarlamanly/
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/drcarlamanly
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YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@dr_carlamanly_imperfect_love
TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@dr_carla_manly
Books by Dr. Carla Manly:
Joy From Fear: Create the Life of Your Dreams by Making Fear Your Friend
Date Smart: Transform Your Relationships and Love Fearlessly
The Joy of Imperfect Love: The Art of Creating Healthy, Securely Attached Relationships
Oracle decks by Dr. Carla Manly:
Connect with Katherine Fabrizio:
Website: https://daughtersrising.info/
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/katherinefabrizio/
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thegooddaughter/
TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@katherine.fabrizio
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@kkfabrizio/about
Books by Katherine Fabrizio:
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Narcissists, Good Daughters, and Difficult Mothers with Expert Katherine Fabrizio
Narcissism, Boundaries, and The Good Daughter Syndrome
Every daughter wants a loving close or relationship with her mom. Yet in real life, sometimes the mother-daughter relationship is truly fabulous. Sometimes, it’s so-so and downright horrible. In cases where a mother engages in controlling, narcissistic, or other abusive behaviors, the cost to the daughter can be exceedingly high. The road to recovery to discovering or reclaiming your voice and self-determination can be long and challenging. The good news is that you can take steady steps forward to heal your heart, soul, and life.
I’m joined by an expert Katherine Fabrizio, who is the author of an Award-Winning book on The Good Daughter Syndrome. In this episode, we’ll focus on this listener’s real-life question. “My mom is a full-blown narcissist. I’ve done a lot of research and she fits the vulnerable narcissistic profile to a T. She was the soccer mom volunteer and PTA Queen who loved the spotlight. Everyone thought she was great. Now that I’m older, I can see all the damage she did to myself esteem by controlling and criticizing me behind the scenes. Should I cut her off?” With that question is the focus of this episode.
I am joined by a very special guest, Mental Health Clinician, Katherine Fabrizio. She is an Author and she will be sharing her expertise on The Good Daughter Syndrome. That’s the title of her book and the full title is The Good Daughter Syndrome: Help For Empathic Daughters of Narcissistic, Borderline, or Difficult Mothers Trapped in the Role of the Good Daughter. Welcome to the show, Katherine. It’s such a pleasure to have you with us.
Thank you, Dr. Manly. It’s so good to be here with you.
Thank you for joining us. This is such a big topic. One that has lots of roots and depths to it. It will be interesting to see how much we can fit in to such a short span of time, but I’m game for it. Before we do that, would you tell our readers just a little bit about what makes you, you?
I am a daughter and a mother of two grown daughters. I have three grandchildren. Very close to my identity is my maternal roles. I’m a psychotherapist and artists and I love to dance to loud music, but I take my role as a grandmother and a mother very seriously.
It’s an important role or set of roles. I do have a question about the dancing to loud music. That’s the first time I’ve heard that one and I love it. What does that look like?
A lot of people when they know me would think that I would like yoga or something more contemplative but no. I’m no good at yoga. I admire people who are and lots of my good friends are. I do Zumba and dance fitness. Sometimes, I put on music and dance to it. I like loud music and some balance in my life. Many things than be serious.
Is a lot of this dancing happening at home, or out?
In the exercise class and also at home. Here’s a secret, I was a rock and roll singer at one time many lifetimes ago.
We all have narcissistic defenses and a need for narcissistic supply—the ability to feel special. When a mother lacks those feelings for whatever reason, she may use motherhood as a platform to feel special or superior. Share on XI can see that. That works. An extra question for you. What’s your favorite song?
I used to sing Pat Benatar’s Hit Me With Your Best Shot.
That fits. I will not ask you to belt out a line. Maybe after we closed the episode, I get that behind the scene. Thank you again for joining us. It’s such a pleasure and I agree. I can see you as a Yogi or a ballet dancer, but now we have a different perspective. When we look at our reader’s question which was a painful one to read and how difficult it is. How many women, and I’m not saying it’s a specific issue just for daughters. There are a lot of sons who have been the victims of this controlling or a narcissistic or other abusive behavior.
Defining Narcissism And Related Traits
We’re not minimizing that at all, but it is interesting because it is the topic of your book and your book is a heavy hitter. Can you tell us first off when this daughter is talking about her mother and she has self-evaluation a person who has a vulnerable narcissistic type. Would you talk a little bit about narcissism and that type in particular.
Here’s why I want to set it up this way because often in our work, as therapists, people will throw about terms like, “You’re borderline, or narcissistic, or this or that.” When you and I are talking about it, we’re talking about it as a personality disorder, which is something that needs to be diagnosed not by the internet, or by one’s best friend. We can certainly have inklings, but we want to have a professional do the diagnosis because that’s the healthy way.
Let’s see to go into detail. The way that I talk with daughters that I see, I talk about defense mechanisms. We all have narcissistic defenses. We need narcissistic supply, the ability to feel special. The way I explain it to my clients when a mom is low on those feelings for whatever reason and she uses motherhood as a platform to feel special or feel superior. Many times, she will be the PTA president or micro-managing. She’ll be less aloof and more intrusive, then you get the vulnerable or inverted narcissism. Instead of what we’re used to thinking of is a male narcissism, braggadocious, and self-absorbed. You can tell and see them coming from a mile away.
Many women are so socialized. We know what the culture expects of us, and so some moms know how to hide this. It’s socially off-putting. They may get their supply from their daughters and they need their daughters to be special. They seek their specialness through the daughter and nothing fits in every instance. In many times, it’s behind closed doors that the superiority sometimes the cruelty and they take the daughter’s need for privacy and individuation as a rejection of the themselves.
Having said that, I struggle with that as a mom. It’s a psychological task that we have to grapple with. It’s not that a person shouldn’t grapple with that I think in fact they should. It’s that they are unable to. They don’t have the psychological resilience to take the loss of a daughter’s growing up and growing away. A problematic way, they double down and hold on tight or put down the daughter so the daughter will feel like they need the mom’s permission and approval constantly even past childhood.
Sometimes, I find daughters will come in and they’ll say, “My mother’s such a narcissist.” I’ll hear about more borderline traits, the narcissistic traits. Another way that I talk about it to my clients is talking about the way in which a narcissist is wounded in a particular way and they’re defended against feeling worthless or falling into that of shame. Thereby, the need for them to be superior and appropriate the daughter or see the daughter as product. Mom who has more borderline traits, her wounding is around abandonment.
When the daughter pulls away and tries to establish herself as her own person. The mom might feel particularly threatened by that and go on the offensive. I’m sure you deal with this all the time. Helping people differentiate. If moms bossing and truces, she might not be on narcissist. A lot of this is culturally. The more patriarchal culture is accepted.
Women aren’t given power in the culture and so they’re going to take it out through the mother-daughter relationship. Helping people sort through where these traits, are they narcissistic traits? Are they borderline trades? Is it more from the culture? Religious or cultural ideals. Is it just pass down or is it intergenerational wounding around one area? It might be sexuality.
Thank you so much for that background because it’s important for our readers to have this solid foundation. That is why when we’re talking initially and saying, “We don’t want to be diagnosing a parent or friend or anyone else from the internet or TikTok or Instagram. We want to be seeking the insights of a psychotherapist, and one who’s well-versed in that area. That’s why I call it not right or wrong, but healthy, or unhealthy ways of getting an understanding because we all have a lens.
If we see the input of a professional and ideally, in a forum where both people are present and over repeated appointments. The behavior can be assessed by a non-biased individual. Our partners and friends tend to be biased. If we can get someone who can look at the characteristics that are coming up, then they’re able to do an accurate diagnosis and a diagnosis without tools to move forward is no help at all. That’s why we’re seeing a lot of social media diagnosis by people who aren’t qualified to be making the diagnosis.
It’s splitting families apart and demonizing parents. Sometimes, demonizing the children. That’s not helpful. We’re about creating connection and healing, which is the purpose of your book. I love how you differentiate, here is what a narcissist behaves. It might be different for males and might be different for females in many cases and the importance of how people are socialized. We’re not making excuses listeners for narcissistic behavior. We are giving in understanding and nice foundation so that as we move forward in the episode, you are able to reflect as much as you can in a detached way on your experience is and get the specific support that you need. How does that sound, Katherine?
That’s sounds lovely. I want to echo and I certainly haven’t given it the breadth of everything that you would need to be able to know if your mom is narcissistic or she has borderline traits. It’s helpful to know where somebody’s coming from. That’s why I like to talk about defenses, and that’s an old-fashioned word and to say, we all have defenses. We all need to feel special and struggle with at times not being right or giving a genuine apology. I like a lot what you said about it’s the nuance and we’re losing that in the social media world. I stopped posting so much on Instagram and Facebook because when they’re rewarding very 30 seconds, I thought, “I can’t get to the nuance.”
It’s very difficult and a relationship by their very nature our nuanced. As you so beautifully point out, we are all evolving. We are not the same person ideally that we were 5 years ago, 10 years ago, or 20 years ago. Ideally, were evolving and becoming more refined versions of who we want to be. I believe that the parenting journey and the journey of being a daughter is one of evolving if you care about the relationship and that’s another piece. Some people have had so much trauma and abuse from a parent that the healthiest thing is to detach.
When women aren't given power in the culture, they may try to assert it through the mother-daughter relationship. Share on XThe other person is stonewalling or self-righteous, then sometimes a step back is exactly what is needed. That can also give time as your saying to look at the patterns and to see, is maybe the behavioral encountering more from my mom’s abandonment issues? Maybe that is more borderline. Maybe there is depression or bipolar disorder involved. Maybe it truly is heavy threads of narcissism. In order to cure the situation, if you want to repair the relationship and heal yourself. We do want to be able to become as objective as possible because it’s through the objectivity that the true inner healing of the self occurs.
Unconscious Agreements In Relationships
You can accept your own fear of abandonment and your own need for supply. If we say, “You’re bad because you have these needs.” What are we saying about ourselves? It’s interesting. That’s why like to focus on the dynamic. The dynamic is the ill, the good daughter syndrome. I think you need or a benefited to understand where mom might be coming from. As you start to test out boundaries, you start to bring up a dialogue.
What you can change is your adaptation. The only thing you can change is your behavior at the end of the day. I like to say it’s proverbial like iceberg. The tip of the iceberg is what you see and maybe what you can describe to your best friend or initially to your therapist. Underneath that lie, what I like to call the unconscious agreements or unconscious contracts that are survival brain signed when we didn’t know any better like, “Mom always knows best.”
If moms narcissistic or she’s high in narcissistic traits, we’ll pick up, as children, “Mom needs this.” Implicitly, we’re going to maybe be more subservient. If our experience is mom becomes dysregulated very easily and she regulates through us, so maybe we don’t rock the boat or maybe we don’t challenge mom. Maybe we’re no trouble. We’re the good girl. We behave.
Let’s pause for a minute because you’re giving us such a wealth of information. When you were talking about these unconscious agreements or unconscious contracts, that’s why I wanted to pause you because it’s such a critical piece. In my fourth book, The Joy of Imperfect Love, I talk about the same thing that every relationship, every relationship we make agreements.
We’re used to making agreements when we buy a house or rent a car or go to the grocery store. I’m making an agreement to give you money for this. We’re doing agreements all the time. It is only in our relationships where we often have agreements that are implicit. They’re unspoken and get their by default. That is not anyone’s fault. We don’t want to blame anyone. We want to do what you’re talking about doing.
Look at the agreements, the ones that are implicit and the few that are explicit very clearly discussed and refined. Look at the ones we have with the self like you’re saying, “I shouldn’t talk back to mom. I shouldn’t take up space. I should let mom be the queen bee.” All of these agreements we’ve made to keep the peace or maybe not keep the peace, “I’m going to talk back to mom. I’m going to rile her up.”
Whatever it might be, and look at ourselves and say, “Which of these agreements work for me and which of these agreements work against me?” That’s why it’s so critical that you brought this up because that is a step forward for all of us and for our readers and the person who wrote in doing some objective non-blaming soul searching about what agreements have been created here which are healthy or unhealthy. How does that sound?
It sounds exactly right. You are given a parent and mother that’s your primary caretaker and the biological mandate is you’ve got to make this work. The evolutionary sense of it is, “I’ve got to survive. I can’t feed myself. I can’t protect myself, so I’ve got to get this caretaker engaged.” If being quiet or smiling and being pleasing and it happens before language. If this helps the other person that helps them, they seem happier. If it helps them stay engaged, we make that agreement unlike somebody appear that we meet with the parent who has so much power over us. It goes in the background and becomes implicit. We don’t even know it until then we go to try and set a boundary, then the whole apple cart gets upset.
That’s a beautiful way of putting it. I love that this is such a non-blaming approach because it helps us. It’s a way that I love trying to do things with clients and in my own life, step back, and be an objective researcher. It’s hard to do and look as if you’re a researcher with a researchers had on the top of your head or a fly on the wall or the wise person in the room. Look at that inner play understanding that most family dynamics as you say start from before the baby is even born or before that daughter comes into the room because many of them are passed on in our generationally.
Many of them are very silent and implicit. It’s only through raising our awareness of them, which is such a beautiful thing. I look at my relationship with my mom and think how many implicit agreements there were. There was an explicit one which was children were to be seen and not heard. That was one of the big explicit ones that had a lot of power in our family. When we look at those, we get to say, “Was that how I want to raise my children? Is that how I want to be in the world now or do I want to say, ‘No, I get to be seen and heard?’”
When you have like you were saying the cultural overlay. The culture is saying, “Children are to be seen and not heard.” When your friends might say, “You only have one mother. Nobody wants the best for you like your mother does or nobody’s going to tell you like your mother will tell you the truth.” They’re just all these and you have the cultural overlay. It can be hallmark culture. It doesn’t even have to be a patriarchal necessarily culture, then it comes together with the implicit agreements.
When women aren't given power in the culture, they may try to assert it through the mother-daughter relationship. Share on XThat is such a beautiful piece, Katherine. I agree. Psychotherapists or not, we are all on this of all the journey. Sometimes, no matter how young or old we are, our biggest area of growth is when someone says, “Can you look at this?” We get the opportunity to look and go, “I didn’t have that right or I’d like to do better there. Thank you for bringing that to my attention.” If you’re used to being in a right or wrong space, that dichotomy of right, wrong, good, or bad, it’s hard at first.
Again, that often comes from childhood, where if you were a bad child, you got in huge trouble. Once you are able to get into the habit of looking and saying, “It’s okay to make a mistake.” It’s what I do with that mistake that makes a difference. Do I own up? Do I learn from it? Do I become a better parent? Do I become a stronger daughter? How can I use this situation to facilitate connection and growth? It’s ever so hard when there’s a narcissist in the room.
No matter the type, at the end, I’m telling you this but you’re the expert on it. I have found that narcissist, there is one thing you can count on. One thing that I is at the center of everything, me or I. I want, I need, and I will. That is the one thing you can count on with the narcissist, even in their kindest and most loving moments. There’s generally something afoot where they’re, as you are saying with the daughter.
I’ve seen so many clients like this where the daughter’s will come and say, “Looking back, I was my mom’s Barbie doll. She dressed me up and make me dance. It was this. She wanted me to do swimming. She wanted me to do that. She wanted me to be the soccer, did this and that.” It was all because she liked basking in the glow.
The Appropriated Daughter
It’s called the appropriated daughter. It’s hard to realize. When you grow up, “I wasn’t loved for me or maybe mom was incapable.” At the same time, I know as a mother, you take pride in your children’s accomplishments but, at the end of the day, they are their accomplishments, as are their mistakes. You can’t micromanage them and try to prohibit them from making any mistake because it’s not yours to learn from.
I love that you point out both those. Our children’s successes are their successes. Our children’s weaknesses or stumbles are so there. Ideally, if we’re in a more healthy relationship with the kids at every age, we’re there to support them. To support them into their successes, to be there to support them through their hiccups and stumbles. When we’re taking that parenting journey seriously, we realize we can’t absorb either one that is harmful to the child. I have many questions for you, but now I’m going to do the first one. Talk a little bit more pleased about the appropriated daughter. I love that term.
It comes from war like when you appropriate supplies of the enemy or something. I’ve had kids. I know at first, they are your baby. There is no mother-daughter separation. There’s just a mother-daughter. In growth, you realize, support, and tolerate. They become their own person. If, however, you are warding off feelings of abandonment or feelings of unworthiness, those would be narcissistic or borderline defenses. You’re going to need to appropriate to take for yourself their successes to use them to regulate you.
Again, this is not conscious, but when the relationship evolves or the daughter’s always soothing the mom and not rocking the boat, bringing good accolades the mom. You pull out and you can say, “Instead of the parent being the bigger, stronger, more together, regulator of the more developmentally immature daughter when it’s upside down. The model I need you to do X, Y, and Z.” in adulthood, when the daughter’s main emotional relationship is the mom when she can’t be okay until mom’s okay and okay with her. That’s a good daughter syndrome.
What happens inside of that would say is the appropriation. It’s like taking that child for yourself. People talk about supply. That word works like their successes. It’s not always cutting her down. Usually, in the good daughter syndrome, mom is trying to make the daughter better. It’s for your own good. Critiquing in any way. Giving unwanted parenting advice, wedging in and wanting to come between the daughter and her partner, whether it’s a man or a woman. That’s at the heart of appropriation. You’re using somebody else for your own regulation.
Almost like it is a life-size doll and that doll is yours to control, to use and say, “Look how pretty my doll is. Look how great my doll is.” If the doll has a crack, then that’s where behind the scenes that doll gets reprimands and criticism you shouldn’t dress that way, you shouldn’t have done this or done that, then the doll is pasted up and taken back in public for display. All of this that creates what you’re talking about.
I agree with you. In most cases, it’s so hardwired in your own biologically that the offending parent. Again, I’m not excusing it. Readers, I’m not excusing this dynamic and the behavior, but I am saying it’s often deeply unconscious. It is been there for decades and passed on often. You can find it in prior generations. The cure to it first off, in my opinion, I’d love yours and narcissists are tricky on this one as are those who are borderline.
They often are very resistant to treatment. They don’t want things to change. They don’t see a problem with the way things are and that makes sense. Especially with narcissism because if the world is all about me and revolving around me, then why do I want anything to change? This feels good. I like being the King or the Queen and they don’t want to change.
The only thing you can change is your behavior. Share on XNarcissistic Defenses And Shame
There’s so defended against this, I say inside in our internal cauldron of shame and self-loathing that they’re not in touch with most of the time because the defense is, I like to say it’s like armed guards around their self. Their defenses are keeping anybody from getting in, then a lot of daughters will say, “Should I go to therapy with mom?” They usually come back and it’s failed. I would say 8 times out of 10, if the mothers are too narcissist because they’re not entering into the therapeutic space with the willingness to be vulnerable.
In their narcissistic mindset, they’re just trying to prove themselves right or treat it as a negotiation and the therapist is the judge or they come out and declare that the therapist is an idiot and doesn’t know what they’re doing or they’ve been to therapy twice. The therapist agrees with them and has decided that you’re the problem.
That’s a familiar scenario. Let’s pause for a minute. Again, you give us so many gems and I don’t want to skip over them. When we look at narcissists, because this is where we’re coming from with the good daughter syndrome, or anyone who’s dealing with someone who’s narcissistic. People often, when I say there’s shame at the route, there’s shame and this self-loathing at the root, they’ll look at me stunned and say, “No. He has so much confidence, or she’s so great and everybody loves her. No, they can’t be because they’re so accomplished or they have lots of money or lots of things. They can’t be ashamed. They can’t have low self-worth.” Explaining that often takes quite a lot of time, so I’m going to give that to you to explain. What is this route of shame and low self-worth?
That’s what understanding of defense is so important. If a person doesn’t have the supply, which is talking every day terms. Ideally, a child gets the idea that they’re very being brings their parent joy. It’s not bumper stickers. It’s not A plus. It’s the look on mom’s face or dad’s face that their inherent being bring mom and dad joy. If they don’t get enough of that, say mom is depressed or alcoholic or mom and dad is an abusive situation for whatever reason. If a person doesn’t get enough of that, again, I’m using a broad brush. They go about life. It’s like this empty cup. They don’t have the supply.
It’s like this empty cup saying, “Fill my cup.” Many of them learn that performing, making the A’s, making a lot of money, or winning the argument gives them a hit a feeling of superiority. It’s like a drug because a drug wears off. Here’s the thing, what’s hard is you have to understand it. They are not in touch with that self-loathing all the time. They’re doing anything to keep from feeling it. Now, if you’ve ever had like a politician lose a race or a mom who suffered, then we call it a narcissistic injury and seen them collapse on themselves. They don’t reach out. They don’t try to connect.
Many times, they don’t go to therapy. They’ll just take medication. It’s scary to see. If a child has seen that, if you breach the narcissistic core and seeing that fat or that collapse, it’s very frightening. I’m getting a little bit off the rails. That’s why it’s so hard for a kid to test. You think you want to tell mom, have the final argument and make your final point. If you got through to her and let her know how she’s done is hurt you and she can’t maintain this armor like she’s fighting for the psychological death. That’s why they’re like they want to be in the arena many times. They want to fight, but if they let something in that whole house of cards threatens to collapse.
Katherine, this is so poignant and sad. For those who are reading, it may feel riveting and troubling if you don’t have a narcissist in your life. It may seem implausible because again, many of those narcissists, especially the vulnerable ones. They are lovely and charismatic. They’re very different from the big bullying charismatic, “I am here. Listen to me. I am narcissist.” It’s not a gendered thing. Although, most narcissists are 73% are men. We may be seeing some shift in that. Who knows?
We may be seeing more women join those ranks, but the point is exactly what you are saying, underneath, we need to understand that that narcissist is behind high castle walls, and that castle looks big, gorgeous, strong, and formidable. Inside is this very scared, lonely, and terrified child who stopped developing. This is my way of looking at it. They stop doing emotional development very early on in life.
They end up being behind those big walls and it is very scary. It’s safe in there, but it’s very lonely and closed off. You’re in the silo, so to speak. Unless you’re in a relationship with someone who is okay with that dynamic, which is often a unhealthy clingy type. I won’t rock the boat dynamic. They can have lots of friends, but true deep honest relationships are impossible unless they’re doing the work.
Challenges In Therapy With Narcissists
Which we’re going to say they rarely do, because the very premise of successful therapy is you’re bringing your vulnerabilities to someone. You’re entering into a space where you’re allowing yourself to open up and be vulnerable. That’s the space that engenders change but your typical narcissist is going to go and try to defeat, either the person that have the better argument and use the therapist as a judge or defeat that the therapist. Which is awful to be on the other side of the couch.
It is awful. It is very tough and to have often that narcissist regardless of the gender, they are going into therapy so defended to even let in. They may play the game of being in therapy, but to do that internal work takes so much effort and so much shifting of one’s neurobiology. It is a lot and I agree with you. It is about vulnerability. To be in that vulnerable space requires self-honesty and other honesty. That is a key piece that I found that is missing with the narcissist, parent, child narcissist, and partner narcissist.
The ability to be honest with the self and, thus, honest with the partner or the child. Why? It is because that would open you up to true vulnerability. It would open you up to looking at that deep black hole inside. I can imagine that. That would be a very scary place if you haven’t. Self-work is hard. It is not for the faint of heart. It takes a lot of work and a lot of looking in the mirror. That’s something that narcissists like to do, but they like to look in the mirror often but not in a self-growth way.
Ideally, a child feels their very being brings their parent joy—not through achievements, but in the look on their parent’s face. Without that, they grow up with an empty cup, chasing validation through success. But it’s like a drug—and the drug wears… Share on XIf you truly feel like all anybody’s going to see, if they look close enough, is it your worthless? Why would you let anybody in? It has its own logic. Why would you let anybody in if you think at the core?
I’m curious about your opinion on this. Many narcissists have lots of stories they tell themselves and the stories change over time depending upon the situation. Their relationship with the truth isn’t a very solid one. They have a very fluid relationship with the truth. What do you think about that?
Yes, because the story they tell themselves they have to have control of it. That’s the other vulnerability versus control. If I can’t be vulnerable, it’s because I need to control everything. I’m going to help all my different versions of the truth. I heard a lawyer say that in his opinion, most of us are mammals and he’s dealing with litigation, but that narcissists are reptiles. That they can pretend to be a mammal, but it’s about power at the end of the day. If you let down your guard, they’re going to pounce. Again, this isn’t litigation. Maybe not quite fair, but that’s always stuck with me because it can performatively appear to be socially engaging and all those things but it’s a ruse.
I agree with you. They become so practiced at it and so accustomed to it that they’ll look like a koala bear, if that serves them, but you take off that mask or that puppet sheet and down underneath that. Nothing offensive meant toward a cobra but underneath, there’s the cobra that is going to.
They’re going to go for you.
They’re going to go with full venom. That is the part that often leaves, whether it’s a daughter or a partner guessing like, “Is it me?” If you have this sense that you are a daughter of a narcissist or a partner of a narcissist, go to therapy if you can. Do some of the self-flection that you and I have talked about because you’ve given us so many tools, Katherine, and so many pearls of wisdom so that we can get away from this negative pattern of calling everybody narcissist.
Parenting with empathy means accepting in yourself the very traits your child will show—envy, aggression, even narcissism. How you respond to them depends entirely on who you are. Share on XStart honing in on what personality types are in front of me and seeing narcissism as with all other human traits on a continuum. Zero over here and ten narcissistic personality disorder over on this far end, and then the various types underneath that. That will help people who are reading begin that journey toward healing because it’s the awareness and the self-awareness, as you said earlier on, we can’t change somebody else.
We can hope and pray that they change and have a healthy relationship with us, but what we can change is our level of self-awareness. The boundaries we develop and the dynamics. I loved your use of that word. It’s one of my favorite words in relational therapy is being able to look and see the dynamic slowly but steadily step back from the unhealthy ones and create more of the healthy ones. This takes a lot of time, patience and mindfulness, and often psychotherapy. What do you think?
That’s so true, because if you think about being a mom. You are parenting with empathy. The degree to which you’ve accepted within yourself, these things that your child is going to exhibit envy, aggression, or their own narcissism. The way that you respond to them has everything to do with who you are.
Thank you because now you’re talking about attachment theory, which we’ve been weaving in and out without explicitly stating it and I love attachment theory. We could have a whole episode on that topic, but we are nearing the end. Katherine, are there any other tips that you would like to share with our listeners? I know you have so much to offer.
Setting Boundaries
I have a lot to say about this, which I won’t. However, most people will tell you to go in and set boundaries like you hear is bound or I’m not going to put up with this, that, or the other. My advice is set of very little boundary and use whatever feedback you get is data initially. Don’t say, “She won’t let me, or it wasn’t worth it,” because she probably won’t let you if it’s needed. There’s going to be a lot of push back depending on how much you need the boundary.
I love that because it’s baby steps. When you’re trying to shift a relationship doing a huge overhaul, especially with a highly defended narcissist, isn’t going to go over well. If the relationship is important to you, baby step but it might be something as simple as, “Mom, I can’t take your calls after 9:00 PM.”
Initially, you may move there, but unless she’s a criminal and a psychopath, it’s probably not good to go right out of the gate to go there. You’re probably not going to be able to sustain it either to do the internal work. To shore up your sense of self, you’re going to need a solid sense of self. That’s going to take some work to then set that small boundary to then stick to the small boundary so you can build from there.
Agreed 100%, because like everything as we were saying, it’s all a work in progress. When we go slowly and steadily, then it’s also not difficult on us as we set these boundaries. As you said so beautifully, use it for data, set the boundary, watch the response, and hold to your boundary. It’s much easier to hold the boundaries when they are small slow steps. Thank you, Katherine, so much. Where can our readers find you and your amazing book
Thank you, Dr. Manly. The thing to remember is The Good Daughter Syndrome. If you Google The Good Daughter Syndrome, my name is going to come up. I’m Katherine Fabrizio, but what I would ask people to do is to go and take the quiz and see whether or not this good daughter syndrome applies to you. That’s all you need to remember.
Again, Katherine, I thank you so much for your time, energy, and your wisdom for waiting through this muck with us. I greatly appreciate it.
Me, too. It’s been pleasure talking with you.
Thank you so much. Dear readers, I thank you for your time, energy, and your support. It is such a joy to be in this realm of healing with you.
Important Links
- Katherine Fabrizio
- Katherine Fabrizio on Instagram
- Katherine Fabrizio on TikTok
- Katherine Fabrizio on YouTube
- Daughters Rising with Katherine Fabrizio
- The Good Daughter Syndrome: Help For Empathic Daughters of Narcissistic, Borderline, or Difficult Mothers Trapped in the Role of the Good Daughter
- NAMI
- The Joy of Imperfect Love
- Dr. Carla Manly Website
- Dr. Carla Manly on Instagram
- Dr. Carla Manly on Twitter
- Dr. Carla Manly on Facebook
- Dr. Carla Manly on LinkedIn
- Dr. Carla Manly on Youtube
- Dr. Carla Manly on TikTok
About Katherine Fabrizio
Katherine Fabrizio, M.A., L.C.M.H.C., is a psychotherapist, mother and the author of the Amazon bestseller, internationally published, and award-winning book The Good Daughter Syndrome: Help for Empathic Daughters of Narcissistic, Borderline, or Difficult Mothers Trapped in the Role of the Good Daughter. She lives in Raleigh, N.C., where she dances to loud music, talks to her husband about everything, and enjoys her grandchildren without doing any of the work.