Marriage and other long term relationships can be wonderful, but they can also be tough. It’s natural to expect–and even believe–that romantic partnerships should last forever. Yet, in real life, many love relationships fall apart due to factors such as ongoing differences, a lack of connection, betrayal, health issues, or abuse. And, in some cases, a terrible combination of these issues can cause the relationship to slowly fray or explode. It can be tempting to stay–to weather the storm and hope it gets better–but sometimes the healthiest option is making that tough choice to exit the situation. And while divorce and other relationship endings can come with many heavy costs ranging from financial struggles to deep emotional drain, sometimes the price you pay to stay is far more devastating. Join me and a brilliant self-care advocate, attorney, and former domestic violence judge, Michele Locke, for a deep dive into unhealthy relationships, narcissism, and divorce. Topics discussed include marriage, long-term relationships, narcissism, narcissistic abuse, emotional abuse, physical abuse, spiritual abuse, financial abuse, support groups, self-growth, courage, communication, self-care, self-love, anxiety, fear, physical health, children, parenting, finances, domestic violence, survivors, victims, and boundaries.

Please note that this episode may contain sensitive material; listener discretion is advised.

Emergency Assistance Note: If you or someone you know needs immediate support, please call your emergency services. In the US, 24/7 help is available by calling “911” or “988” (Suicide and Crisis Hotline). Support/informational links are in the show notes.

IMPORTANT DISCLAIMER: No expert in this (or any episode) is offering medical or psychological direction; the content is purely informational in nature. Please consult your physician or healthcare provider before undertaking any new regimen or procedure.

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Connect with Dr. Carla Manly:

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Books by Dr. Carla Manly:

Joy From Fear: Create the Life of Your Dreams by Making Fear Your Friend

Date Smart: Transform Your Relationships and Love Fearlessly

Aging Joyfully: A Woman’s Guide to Optimal Health, Relationships, and Fulfillment for Her 50s and Beyond

The Joy of Imperfect Love: The Art of Creating Healthy, Securely Attached Relationships

Oracle decks by Dr. Carla Manly:

Etsy

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Connect with Michele Locke:

Website: https://www.michelelocke.com/

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/attorneymichelelocke/

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/michele-locke/

Podcast: https://www.michelelocke.com/podcast

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How to Walk Away from Narcissistic Abuse and Toxic Relationships with Expert Michele Locke

Leaving Destructive Relationships with Clarity, Strength, and Courage

The Reality of Difficult Relationships and the Cost of Staying

Marriage and other long-term relationships can be wonderful, but they can also be tough. It’s natural to expect and even believe that romantic partnerships should last forever. Yet, in real life, many love relationships fall apart due to factors such as ongoing differences, a lack of connection, betrayal, health issues, or abuse. In some cases, a terrible combination of these issues can cause the relationship to explode at the seams.

It can be tempting to stay to weather the storm and hope it gets better, but sometimes, the healthiest option is making that tough choice to exit the situation. While divorce and other relationship endings can come with many heavy costs, from financial struggles to deep emotional drain, sometimes, the price you pay to stay is far more devastating. Join me and a brilliant self-care advocate, attorney, and former domestic violence judge for a deep dive into relationships and divorce.

We’ll focus on this reader’s real-life concern. “I want to leave my marriage of nineteen years, but I know I can’t because of personal and financial issues. My husband is an extreme narcissist, and he’s emotionally abusive 24/7. I’ve considered leaving him for the fifteen years that we’ve been together. Things were pretty good in the first few years, or maybe I was stupid and blind to what was going on.

Now that I’m getting older, I don’t have the patience and resilience I used to. The ongoing abuse is affecting my health. I’m chronically tired and worn out. Divorce is impossible, but my husband would make sure I didn’t get a penny. He would cut me off from my friends. How can I cope because I need to stay?” With that issue as the focus of this episode, this is the show.

I am joined by a tremendous special guest, Michele Locke. Michele is an attorney, former domestic violence judge, and self-care advocate. Welcome to the show, Michele. It is such a pleasure to have you with us.

I am so happy to be here and talking to you. Thank you for inviting me.

Thank you for making special time for us. Before we launch into this very sad and often all too common question or concern, could you tell our readers a little bit about what makes you you?

What makes me me is that you either love me or you hate me. There’s not much in between. I have wanted to be a lawyer since age 8 and a judge since age 9. I never deviated from that path. Family law has been a calling for me most of my life because I’ve lived every aspect of family law, whether it’s a child of divorce. My dad has remarried 4 or 8 times. I lost count. I have a stepdad who, quite frankly, is part of the reason I am where I am. He was so wonderful and is so wonderful.

The Importance of Self-Care and Prioritization

I do family law for a living. I’ve been through quite a journey myself. I’ve had 15 surgeries in a little under 5 years. That was because I didn’t take care of myself. I put my husband first. I put his kids first. I put our kids first. I wasn’t even number 4 or 5 on the list. I was probably number 99. I learned the hard way that you can’t put yourself last. I did, and I paid the price. I have much better boundaries. I’m much better about saying no. As someone has once told me, that is a complete sentence. I’m much better at filling my cup first. It’s not selfish because if I can’t fill mine, then I can’t fill others.

Thank you for sharing all of that. Before we move on, first, I’ve had the pleasure of chatting with you. This is my second time, and even the first time. If there’s a Love Michele and Don’t love Michele Club, I’m in the former. I’m in the Love Michele Club.

I can assure you. If I have cross-examined you in court, you are on the I Do Not Like Michele Club. That’s okay. I understand.

I’ll stay away from your courtroom. I’ll stay away from courtrooms, in general.

That’s generally a good life policy.

This is my 1st question, 2nd comment. If you don’t mind responding, was your divorce easy? I’m guessing not.

Yes and no. That’s a little more complicated answer. My ex-husband is also an attorney. He was a prosecutor. We were together 24 years and married 22. The divorce itself was not difficult. That being said, the getting out, the lead-up to me moving out, and the divorce were an absolute living nightmare. He’s got his story, and I’ve got mine. Living through what I went through with the divorce was the easy part.

Both of us were litigators. Both of us lived and breathed in the courtroom. Both of us were smart enough to know what could happen in the courtroom, and that was not going to be what was best for our son or each other. Things are said in court that you can’t come back from. Bridges are burned that you can’t come back from. We both settled. One side gave more than the other to get out. That’s sometimes what happens. We got the divorce itself done, but getting out took every bit of strength I had.

You know, from a lived experience, how a bad marriage and divorce, as necessary as it sometimes is, adds to that burden. You said you had fifteen surgeries.

I’ve had fifteen surgeries.

You weren’t able to take care of yourself. You were focusing on everyone else.

I was almost 300 pounds at 1 point. I’m down about 118 pounds. From my highest weight. I stopped getting on the scale when I hit about 286, but I know I got heavier than that. I know it was because I used food as an emotional crutch to deal with my situation in particular, and the completely unhealthy way to deal with it. I didn’t take care of myself, and I suffered the consequences.

I do this for a living. That’s the thing. I see the red flags. I see personality disorders. I see them each and every day. Even those who know the most are still susceptible to falling for some of those things. It is so much easier to be on the outside and say, “Why aren’t you seeing this? Why aren’t you getting out?” than being on the inside and trying to survive every day to get to the next to get out. It’s different.

When people tell their friends, “I don’t know why you don’t get out,” that’s not helpful. What they should be saying instead is, “I’m here when you’re ready,” or, “How can I help?” Telling them, “I don’t know why they’re not getting out,” makes them feel worse. It gives them more shame. I can assure you, they already have enough shame from not being able to extricate themselves from their situation because it’s sometimes embarrassing and shameful to admit that you got into that position to begin with.

100%. Having been there, I get it. I know exactly what you’re talking about. It’s not that everyone or most people don’t feel shame when things in a romantic relationship or any relationship have gone bad. We want to appear like we’re successful parents, successful romantic partners, successful daughters, successful sons, or whatever it is.

I’m not saying it doesn’t happen and it’s not difficult in other realms, but if you are someone who is supposed to have it all together, like a doctor, a lawyer, a psychologist, a fireman, a fire emergency person, or anything, the world is looking to you to have it all together because they need you. It’s all the more difficult. If you’re the partner of one of those people, breaking that bubble or that appearance that it’s all good and it’s all together.

Whether you have a profession or not, it’s a difficult time when you have to or get called to let go of the appearance and do what you need to do. That takes me to the piece you talked about, where you said self-care, self-awareness, or doing it for yourself is critical. It’s what I have coined as being self-full because people are afraid of being what they call selfish.

To sidestep that and say it’s not selfish. We’ll never be fully aware because we keep changing, but it’s becoming as aware as we can day-to-day. You’re right. When we’re in a bad relationship, and I work with this every day, as do you, we often can’t see what’s happening in our own lives. If we were a fly on a wall in somebody else’s life, we could say, “This is what’s happening. I see this. There’s a narcissist. This person’s being abusive.”

When we’re in it, sometimes, we’re struggling so hard to stay afloat that we don’t have the bandwidth to dissect. Even if we could, seeing what’s happening in our own relationships is so much harder. Sometimes, when we get distance, we’re out, we take a break, we get a separation or a divorce, or we’re in therapy, that’s when those lights start going on. You’ve been through it. Are you healing from all your surgeries? How are you doing?

I am probably pain-free for the first time in a decade, which is nice. I am finding joy again. This new path that I’ve gone down has been therapeutic for so many reasons. My, hopefully, ability and my message to others inspires others to get out and take care of themselves because going through what I went through, I wouldn’t wish it on anyone.

I’ve spent the last couple of years either preparing for, gearing up for, or healing from a surgery. November 2020 is when it all started. Honestly, I did it to myself. The other part is that you have to take ownership of your own issues and faults. While my marriage was not what I had hoped it would be, I did stay. I did choose to ignore myself. That’s on me. I’m fixing that. That’s going to change and/or it has changed.

My message to others is to not do what I did and throw out the Instagram-perfect because it’s not real. You do a lot of self-exploration when you’re trying to figure out where you went wrong or where you lost sight of who you were. When we’ve talked before, I talked about this. Life is a journey. At the end of your life, you look back on your journey. Is it what you wanted it to be? At the end of your life, there is no Instagram-perfect. It’s just you and your thoughts about what your journey was. Is your journey what you wanted it to be, or did you live it for something else?

That’s beautifully put. Whatever it is that’s important to us, whenever our time comes to leave the planet, can we look back with compassion and say, “Did I love well? Did I live well?” To me, that’s the essence. For some people, it’s looking back and saying, “This is how much stuff I accumulated.” No judgment there.

It doesn’t fit in the casket.

You can’t take it with you. That’s the old saying, and it’s so true. For those of you who are not watching on YouTube and aren’t seeing the video, it’s beautiful. Tell me about what’s behind you in neon letters.

It’s my podcast sign. Love Lust Law is my podcast. I have to tell you. I ordered this sign. My executive producer has the same sign as well. It makes me happy. Even though I’m not doing my own podcasting stuff because I’ve been working on my law practice, I turn it on every day because it brings a smile to my face. It makes me happy. That’s my podcast sign, Love Lust Law. Where there is love, there is lust. Along with all of that, there’s going to be the court system at some point.

I may someday get a neon sign from my office, but it will not have anything to do with law.

It makes me happy. I come into my office, and the first thing I do is plug it in.

I could imagine taking that into a courtroom, plugging it in behind you. That would lighten the tone of the courtroom.

It’s my happy sign.

With a big kiss at the top of it. A big, red lipstick kiss.

That’s my signature in court. When I go to the court for one of my hearings, I wear red lipstick. The lips were modeled after my power red lipstick that I have worn for a decade, at least, if not longer. I’m a big believer in putting on that red lipstick and going to be the boss in court.

There you have it.

I’m not wearing red lipstick now. It’s not the appropriate forum for it.

Red lipstick will never work on me.

I’m going to wholeheartedly disagree because a version of red works on every woman. The question is, what is the basis of that red? I wear blue-reds. That’s what works for me. Everyone can.

I don’t even know what a blue-red is. There we go.

It sounds like a black and blue mark. Everyone’s different. There is nothing more empowering for me than wholeheartedly embracing my femininity, putting on that red lipstick, and going into court. That is me.

For me, it’s remembering to brush my hair. My husband will say, “Could you please brush your hair?” I’m like, “I forgot. Okay.” Let’s move into narcissism.

That’s a minefield. Let’s start with, I’m a lawyer. Everything I’m about to say is not because I’m a licensed psychologist. I’m not a therapist. Everything I talk about is because I deal with it in the courtroom, and I deal with it with clients. We all know that Narcissistic Personality Disorder is in the DSM. It’s one of the Cluster B disorders, so it’s one of the more difficult ones to treat. It’s one you can’t, I don’t think, treat with medication, so it makes it problematic.

Understanding Narcissism and Its Impact

What I find is that that word is overused in social media these days for a couple of reasons. One, you can have narcissistic traits and not be a narcissist. That is what people miss quite often. For example, I’d be willing to bet that every CEO out there in America has narcissistic traits. They can’t do what they do unless they have them. I can guarantee you that every litigator and every attorney who goes into that courtroom, picks juries, and tries cases has some narcissistic traits. Why? It’s because there’s no way we get in a courtroom and go do it if we don’t have those traits.

Narcissistic traits themselves are not necessarily a bad thing. They can be useful in some areas of life. It becomes a problem when you have too many of the characteristics, and it defines your behaviors and actions every single day. You know more about this than I do because you’ve got Dr. before your name. I don’t. I hope that you correct me if I’m wrong about anything I’m saying.

You’ve got it. I agree with you. Narcissistic Personality Disorder is a diagnosable mental health disorder. It is in the DSM and will likely be in the next revision. What we see in narcissism is that it’s on a continuum. There’s healthy narcissism. As you go on that continuum, you get closer to the place that we’re talking about, which is true Narcissistic Personality Disorder. A lot of people with NPD, Narcissistic Personality Disorder, are high-functioning.

They are extremely intelligent, typically.

They’re often super intelligent. What happens is they don’t have the empathy and emotional intelligence. They will lie, cheat, steal, manipulate, gaslight, and do anything that they feel needs to be done in order to get their needs met. That’s where we get to that end when we start moving into Narcissistic Personality Disorder, which shares some commonalities with Borderline Personality Disorder. It shares some characteristics with Antisocial Personality Disorder, which some people call a sociopath.

I was like, “Sociopathic behavior.”

They are all different. We’re out there on Instagram saying that somebody’s a narcissist because they’re looking in the mirror. We’re diluting the true meaning of narcissism. I’m not saying that’s a narcissistic trait, which would be a healthier way to identify it. I agree with you. You did a great job.

In my litigation realm, I seem to get hired on high-conflict cases. It’s not because I want them to be high conflict, but that’s what happens. Typically, what I find is that when we get into a courtroom proceeding and you have to go through hearing after hearing and end up in the final trial, you’re going to have at least one of the parties with a personality disorder.

Most reasonable people will resolve their differences. They won’t necessarily resolve them to the level of what they wanted. When you settle a case, both sides walk away unhappy. That’s always the sign of successful mediation when both sides walk away unhappy. When you’re dealing with an NPD, they have to win at all costs. They will cut off their nose to spite their face.

They’re all about winning.

It is about destruction. They’re like, “How dare you cross me? How dare you not take my position? How dare you not do what I’m telling you to do? It’s then, “I’m going to show you.”

What that does is it cuts down. That type of personality is one of the most difficult things about Narcissistic Personality Disorder. Not that this issue that I’m about to talk about, which is where you’re leading us, isn’t alive in people without NPD, but one of the common parts of NPD is the lack of ability to communicate in open, honest, clear, respectful, transparent, and kind ways.

I deal with so much dysfunction. I don’t know what normal health looks like unless my therapist told me it was.

It’s part of what I specialize in. In my fourth book, The Joy of Imperfect Love, I go to great lengths to detail what healthy communication looks like. Often, I’ll work with people in the business realm, and they’ll say, “I communicate great with my employees. Everybody at work loves me. Everyone in my office thinks I’m fab, so why am I having trouble at home?”

Regardless of your gender, if you are the boss or the supervisor, you can do fine at work, especially in those situations where you’re calling the shots. When you come home into your intimate home environment with your partner and kids, where people get to know you, many of your “friends don’t know.

They don’t know. They don’t see behind the doors. What’s behind the doors is different for NPDs in particular.

That’s where we see true emotional intelligence, either exists or is largely absent. It’s that ability to do basic things like reflective listening, using I statements, not interrupting, asking for clarification, and talking in a kind and respectful tone instead of talking down at someone, yelling, barking, or using expletives that immediately create hardships. For most narcissists, that’s their arsenal. They love to gaslight. They love to criticize.

You think you’re crazy by the end of it because they’re telling you these things, and it’s their version. You think to yourself, “I know this didn’t happen. I know this is not where it is.” This goes back to the question from the reader. They’re so good at it that it makes you feel like you’re trapped. It makes you feel like you can’t get out. It makes you feel like you’ll be left with nothing and that you’ll have no means to support yourself. What they do is designed to keep you stuck so that they keep getting their fill at your expense.

That’s the narcissistic supply, isn’t it? They feed on making other people feel sad and feel badly about themselves. They feed on seeing somebody else cry or get upset. At the opposite end, they also feed on adoration. They feed on going into that workplace where everybody’s saying, “Aren’t you wonderful? You’re so smart. You’re so this. You’re so that.” They come home where they’ve broken the relationship, so their once-beloved is not looking at them endearingly. I hear this one all the time. They’re mad at that person because that person no longer adores them. Why?

They’re like, “How dare you not love me for treating you like crap?”

You’ve got it exactly.

They’re like, “How dare you not love me? How dare you not forgive me the instant I say I’m sorry for all that litany of names I’ve spent calling you the last two weeks. How dare you?”

We can only imagine that with our reader’s question, it’s likely she’s saying that the husband abuses her 24/7. It sounds like every waking hour, there’s something going on. That’s what people with NPD specialize in.

It never stops. They never let up.

Even in the periods where their nice side appears, they often keep poking in.

For a hot 24 hours?

Yeah. They can be merciless. The moment you let your guard down, there it is. When you say, “That hurt me,” the narcissist says, “It was a joke.”

They’re like, “It was a joke. I didn’t mean it. You’re overly sensitive. You’re too emotional. You’re that stupid that you would take it seriously.” I could keep going.

Calling out some of the key behaviors, another common one is the revisionist history, which is part of the gaslighting. They’re like, “I didn’t say that. I said it this way. You are saying I swore at you and called you this and that, but you made that up. I said how lovely you look.”

My favorite one was, “You misheard me.”

I imagine you hear that one a lot.

I heard it for 24 years.

You were married to a narcissist.

I can’t say there was ever a diagnosis. There were traits. That’s all I can say.

That’s what we’ll stay with. It’s beautiful that you say it that way if somebody hasn’t been diagnosed.

You can’t call them that. If they haven’t been diagnosed officially, you can’t call them that.

Getting a narcissist into an assessment setting is the first part.

Good luck.

Second part, they can be so manipulative. If you’re smart, you can figure out where they’re headed so they can evade the other piece about narcissism. Readers, this is an important piece. Narcissists lack self-awareness. Sometimes, they have become so habituated that they can’t see or don’t want to see that they’re gaslighting or lying. Your eyes are getting bigger. What’s happening? What are you thinking here?

I feel sorry for the reader because there are times when you are dealing with someone like that. I’m sorry. What you were saying triggered some memories for me. It’s okay. It gives great material. It’s all right. It also gives me the ability to help people because I know how challenging it is when you feel like all hope is lost, or you feel like there is no escape. Your reader feels like there is no hope and there is no escape. She can’t get out. She’s stuck. It’s every single day. Towards the end, it gets to be every single day. The good times lasted longer in the beginning, and then towards the end, the bad times lasted endlessly. You get good to give you enough hope to keep you around another day.

The Challenges of Leaving an Abusive Relationship and the Need for Support

I sympathize, empathize, and want to empower the reader to know that what she is being told is not the reality. She can get out. She can be okay, and she will be okay. She has to find that courage and that group of friends to lean on, even though she said she’ll lose her friends, because I’m sure he has threatened to.

I’m sure he will say, “Once your friends find out what you’ve done, they won’t be your friends anymore. Wait until I tell your parents because then your parents won’t love you anymore.” What I would tell her if that’s her scenario is, “Don’t believe it. It’s not true. You have people out there who love you. You have people out there that will pick you up when you don’t want to get back up anymore.”

Thank you for focusing on that very poignant piece. With narcissists, one of their many unfortunate specialties is to isolate and make people keep people away from their friends, even their kids and loved ones. They will fracture relationships. They will say things like, “I don’t want your kids coming to the house,” or, “I don’t want your mom coming to the house,” or, “I don’t want your friends coming over,” or whatever it is.

They find all sorts of reasons and ways to isolate people. The person in that relationship often feels not only embarrassed and ashamed, but very alone. That is why getting support is important. Even if you can’t afford one-on-one psychotherapy, you can likely ask to get to a support group or an online support group.

There are so many online support groups. If you can’t leave the house, which happens in some of these cases, or you can’t leave the house unmonitored, so to speak, there are lots of online resources that can help that don’t cost anything because there are people who want to help.

I’ve run support groups. I’ve been in support groups. Having people who know what you’ve experienced or are experiencing, who can validate you. Domestic violence support groups, groups that help people who are victims of narcissism, and that sort of thing, it’s not just about sitting in a circle and all telling your stories. That can be part of it.

A lot of it is about self-esteem-building, self-confidence-building, and self-fullness-building. They also offer resources for taking that first step. To the person who wrote in, we can’t recommend that she leave or not leave, but we can say that there is life on the other side. That step out that front door feels incredibly scary.

It’s terrifying because all you have in the back of your head is what you were told for the last however many years. It’s on a vicious cycle until you stop that wheel turning. It stays with you in the beginning, that, “You’re not worthy. If people knew about you, they wouldn’t like you. You’re not smart. You just think you are.”

All of that rolls around in your head until, at some point, you realize it’s not true. You realize that it was told to manipulate you, control you, and keep you under their thumb to do what they wanted you to do. That first step, I’m not going to lie, is terrifying, but you do get through it. Everyone is afraid or terrified of giving birth for the first time, but you get through it.

What you realize on the other side of fear, once you start working through it, is joy, breadth, and freedom. It’s a process, but a process so worth doing, because on the other side of all of that is your real, genuine, true self. I know you mentioned you had this lovely resource of your stepdad. Maybe you grew up in an environment where you didn’t have a lifeline, or you had 1 or 2 parents who were constantly criticizing you and holding you down.

It only takes one. It doesn’t take both. It can even be a sibling saying, “You’re ugly or worthless. No one will love you. Everything you touch turns to crap,” or whatever it is. Those become internalized beliefs. When you meet a narcissist, it feels familiar. You don’t know it’s bad familiar. It’s not that you chose a narcissist so that you could get abused.

It feels like home.

It feels like home, as rotten as that home is.

Home is messed up.

The other piece I want to highlight for this reader who may be holding out hope that the narcissists will change is that I believe there are narcissists who can change if they’re willing to go and do the work. It takes a lot of work. You’re making faces. Give me faces.

That’s why I don’t play poker. Let’s be clear. I don’t play poker for a reason. From my understanding, and please correct me if I’m wrong, it takes twenty years of serious therapy for a borderline to get help. That borderline has to be willing to admit they are borderline in the beginning, which almost never happens. Isn’t the same true for a narcissist? The biggest problem with narcissists is, how do you know you’re not a narcissist? It’s because you’re willing to examine whether you are one or not.

I agree with you that it is work. If we go back to the time of Freud and look at the research that was done on narcissists moving forward, it is one of the most challenging disorders to work with. Like borderline, getting someone to shift from that because their internal awareness is so low depends on the relationship they’re in and how willing and wanting they are to change. If there’s no desire to change, forget about it. Especially if that narcissist is in a job situation or has a way to get reinforcement from the outside world where they go in, they get kudos, and they feel they bask in people’s adoration, attention, or whatever it is, then they don’t have the need to change at home.

There’s no need when they’re getting told at the office that they’re the best at whatever it is they do for a living, like, “Mr. or Mrs. so-and-so, you’re the best trial attorney I’ve ever met. I love you. You’re the best doctor I’ve ever met. I love you.” They’re not going to change. They get the fix. They feed off that. Every time they hear that, it makes their NPD that much more unmanageable.

I work with many people who work with narcissists. They’ll say things like, “I could never say anything to the doctor I work for or the attorney I work for. I couldn’t say anything because I depend on them for my job,” or, “The hospital won’t get rid of so-and-so.” Even if people are feeling the heavy weight of the narcissist in a work environment, they need to pay their rent, their mortgage, their food bills, and their kids’ tuition. They’re not going to get in the narcissist’s face.

There’s hell hath no fury like a woman scorned. It’s more like hell hath no fury like a pissed off narcissist. Sorry for cursing.

They can’t take criticism. They can’t take feedback, so it makes it all worse so far. Back to our reader’s question and looking at all of these pieces, and you’ve given so many tips, it sounds as if on one hand, you’re saying, “Have faith. You could get beyond this. There is life outside.” If she still chooses to stay, what are maybe three top tips for her?

Strategies for Coping and Reclaiming Peace

Boundaries. Boundaries are absolute. This is a hard one even for the professionals who do this for a living. You don’t engage. That’s a challenge because they will push every button they know how to get you to engage, because I need that fix. Boundaries, don’t engage, and protect your peace at all costs.

Those are such good pieces. The boundaries, spending a moment there, are being able to say, “No,” disengage, and walk away. It is being able to say, “I won’t tolerate it when you swear at me,” and walk away. It is being able to say, “No, I won’t make you dinner if you’re going to tell me the food I make is no good.” They love criticizing.

It is being able to say, “No, I won’t go to your work function because you are looking at all the women while I’m there. It doesn’t feel good,” or, “You’re looking at all the other men. It doesn’t feel good.” These are all boundaries to say, “No, I won’t.” You can also do it in a yes way, like, “Yes, I’m going to respect myself by leaving this conversation. Yes, I am going to believe that my truth is worth something. I’m not going to let you gaslight me.”

Say, “Thank you for your opinion,” and end the conversation. You could also say, “Thank you for your thought. I appreciate it,” and walk out.

That is probably one of the biggest tips of all, being able to say, “Thank you,” and walk away. The narcissist wants you to engage. Remember, readers. They want the reaction. Whether it’s your boss, your partner, or your parent, they feed off the reaction. They’ll feed as much off the adoration as they will off the negative.

It doesn’t have to be positive. Positive and negative don’t matter. It’s the feed because you are engaging with that person. They need the engagement to feed whatever it is that’s going on in their head. They have to have it. It doesn’t matter if it’s good or bad because they’re still getting attention.

For our reader who wrote in, Michele and I are saying it as if it’s easy, but it’s so hard.

You’re laughing because it is that difficult, and we know it. If you’ve lived it, you know it. You will get through it. There are those who are on the other side and can tell you that you will get there, even if it’s the scariest thing you’ve ever done in your life. I’ve got to tell you. To some extent, I’d rather live under the freeway than live with a person who would treat someone like an NPD person would. It’s not worth it.

You and I are very aligned. We’ve had those chats with ourselves in the dark of night. I remember that’s how I was in my first marriage, where I finally said, “Would I rather be living under a bridge, or would I rather be living with this person?” Even though I knew deep in me that my family would never let me live under a bridge and that I wouldn’t fall that low, it was still so illuminating for me on a soul level to realize, “I would truly rather. That would be cozy. I would feel safer compared to how I feel here.”

It sounds cliché, but peace is priceless. The ability to fill your lungs with air again is a feeling that, until you’ve been through it, you can’t describe how good it feels.

I remember after my divorce, I’d put signs up around that said, “Don’t break my spirit.” My kids would laugh.

Don’t touch my peace. Don’t touch my boundaries. I’m forever grateful for the years for so many different reasons. I’ve got three beautiful kids, and I learned valuable lessons that I can help share with others.

Thank you. This is a beautiful place to wind down. How important it is for us not to get stuck in blame, shame, and resentment. All those things hold us back. I agree with you. It’s easy to pretend that if we didn’t choose the marriage, this, or that, life would’ve been perfect. Maybe life could have been worse. We don’t know. Who knows?

That’s why it’s a journey.

When you think about it, as long as you learn from your past and as long as you glean something from it, something that you would like to do better in the future or some lesson that made you stronger and made you learn to love yourself or your kids more, whatever it might be, then that makes the pivot. You don’t see them as wasted years. You see them as years that were proving grounds.

A lot of energy went somewhere you’d rather it not have, but you’re not carrying that resentment with you. You’re not carrying that baggage, and you’re going into your next decade or two, or whatever is ahead for you. We never know what life has for us. You’re not living in regret or resentment. That’s giving somebody else way too much power.

You never give your power away. When you live with regret, you are giving your power away.

Thank you for framing it that way. Any other thoughts, big or little, before we wind down?

I want her to know that she’s got what it takes to do what she needs to do to make herself safe and happy. No matter what that path is, she’ll be okay. She has to figure out what the path is for her.

The path, whether it’s to stay, work on boundaries, get support, create a life that she feels good in the bubble of her own life, create an exit plan, or get resources. They are out there. Where can our audience find you?

They can find me on my website, which is MicheleLocke.com. My website has a link to my podcast, which is Love Lust Law. You can find that anywhere you find your podcasts. I’m on Instagram @AttorneyMicheleLocke. I’m not hard to find.

Thank you so much for your generosity, your compassion, your beauty, your wisdom, your funniness, and your light. I appreciate you being with us.

Thank you very much for having me. I hope we can do this again.

 It would be lovely. To our readers, thank you for sharing your time and energy. Going into this journey with us wasn’t an easy one, but I hope the bit of levity helped make it seem a little bit lighter. Thank you.

Important Links

• Michele Locke
• Love Lust Law Podcast
• @AttorneyMicheleLocke on Instagram
• Michele Locke on LinkedIn
• NAMI HelpLine
• Mental Health and Relationships
• National Domestic Violence Hotline
• Dr. Carla Marie Manly
•  Dr. Carla Marie Manly on Instagram
• Dr. Carla Marie Manly on X
• Dr. Carla Marie Manly on Facebook
• Dr. Carla Marie Manly on LinkedIn
• Dr. Carla Marie Manly on YouTube
• Dr. Carla Marie Manly on TikTok
• The Joy of Imperfect Love

About Michele Locke

Michele Locke’s distinguished career journey includes her tenure as an Associate Municipal Court Judge, a role she embraces with dedication. As a practicing family law attorney, her primary motivation for this pivotal shift was to deepen her engagement with family law litigation. In this area, she has always felt a profound connection and commitment.

Before ascending to the judiciary, Michele had already established a formidable reputation through her successful family law practice. Here, she demonstrated her prowess in representing clients across a broad spectrum of highly contested legal disputes, showcasing her skillful advocacy and deep legal acumen.

While on the bench, Michele presided over a specialized Domestic Violence Court. This court was primarily focused on handling Protective Order Applications, alongside a spectrum of related family law issues such as divorce proceedings, custody battles, child support enforcement, and various complications stemming from those Protective Orders. Her judicial responsibilities also extended to overseeing the Child Protective Services Court, further solidifying her expertise in navigating the intricate legal challenges associated with domestic violence, stalking, harassment, child abuse, and other family law matters.

Michele’s unwavering passion for family law was ignited during her law school days and has been fueled throughout her childhood. As someone who has navigated the personal challenges of being a child of divorce, a stepmother to two daughters, and a mother to three sons, Michele possesses a unique and empathetic understanding of family relationships’ dynamic and complex nature. This personal background has equipped her with an invaluable perspective on the profound impacts of divorce and family disputes on the individuals involved, especially during such emotionally charged times.

In her private practice, Michele Locke specializes in a comprehensive range of family law services, including but not limited to Divorce, Custody, Child Support, and Family Violence. Her practice is dedicated to advocating for the rights and well-being of her clients, ensuring they receive the highest level of legal representation during their most challenging moments. Through her extensive experience, both on the bench and in private practice, Michele continues to make significant contributions to the field of family law, driven by her deep-seated passion and commitment to justice and the welfare of families.